Greater Louisville Classic 2015
10/04/2015 9:50:27 AM
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I hope you have more elementary times to post! There are entire teams that have not had times posted. This is disheartening to these kids who worked really hard! Seems that all your efforts were focused on the middle, high school and college races. Chip timing should have been used for the elementary races as well.
I hope you have more elementary times to post! There are entire teams that have not had times posted. This is disheartening to these kids who worked really hard! Seems that all your efforts were focused on the middle, high school and college races. Chip timing should have been used for the elementary races as well.
10/04/2015 1:19:57 PM
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The entire race was very unorganized. There was no official starting line or lanes marked. The runners got a spot in between the two cones on a first come first serve basis. The start area was also extremely crowded with spectators while the team were trying to warm up. This area should have been clear for the runners. The course was not well defined. There were constantly spectators on the course impeding runners, especially towards the finish of the 3k. The finish was a mess. The finish chute was moved to the 3k area before the 2k open was completed leaving the last runners with no official place to finish. Once runners did get to the chute they were recorded by a guy using paper and pencil, in the rain. A lot of numbers were written incorrectly. The split lines in the chute were also causing a lot of problems with runners moving up ahead of other runners who finished before them. We still don't have all of the elementary results posted. With the elementary races being charged per runner, and some teams paying $300 - $400 in registration fees, it just seemed like our races were funding for the older races and nothing more.
The entire race was very unorganized.

There was no official starting line or lanes marked. The runners got a spot in between the two cones on a first come first serve basis. The start area was also extremely crowded with spectators while the team were trying to warm up. This area should have been clear for the runners.

The course was not well defined. There were constantly spectators on the course impeding runners, especially towards the finish of the 3k.

The finish was a mess. The finish chute was moved to the 3k area before the 2k open was completed leaving the last runners with no official place to finish. Once runners did get to the chute they were recorded by a guy using paper and pencil, in the rain. A lot of numbers were written incorrectly.
The split lines in the chute were also causing a lot of problems with runners moving up ahead of other runners who finished before them.

We still don't have all of the elementary results posted.

With the elementary races being charged per runner, and some teams paying $300 - $400 in registration fees, it just seemed like our races were funding for the older races and nothing more.
10/04/2015 3:27:16 PM
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The 2000m time for the Kentucky MS Young Ladies ranking is incorrect. The top time is 6:34.00 and her top 1600m time is 7:57.08. Even Gaby could not run that fast as a six grader.
The 2000m time for the Kentucky MS Young Ladies ranking is incorrect. The top time is 6:34.00 and her top 1600m time is 7:57.08.

Even Gaby could not run that fast as a six grader.
10/05/2015 10:15:48 AM
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I think that some of you are making an assumption that many elementary and middle school parents/coaches make, and that is to assume that this website somehow is in control of race results and other matters. This website can only report what is reported to them by the meet organizers - so while it is frustrating to see wrong times, name misspellings, missing runners, incomplete results, etc., this website has no control over that information; it is provided by the meet organizers.
I think that some of you are making an assumption that many elementary and middle school parents/coaches make, and that is to assume that this website somehow is in control of race results and other matters. This website can only report what is reported to them by the meet organizers - so while it is frustrating to see wrong times, name misspellings, missing runners, incomplete results, etc., this website has no control over that information; it is provided by the meet organizers.
10/05/2015 12:47:39 PM
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Does anyone know if the remaining times for the elementary runners will be posted. Parents are very anxious to get their children's times and I can't really provide them any information.
Does anyone know if the remaining times for the elementary runners will be posted. Parents are very anxious to get their children's times and I can't really provide them any information.
10/05/2015 2:00:57 PM
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Thanks for all of the feedback. As the meet director for the elementary races I would agree with many of your critiques of the races. This is a note that I just sent to all participating coaches. For our elementary coaches I want to issue an apology and thanks (for your patience). We were (very positively) overwhelmed by the number of elementary entrants. I will make no excuses but apologize that we were not more well-prepared. With the weather on the east coast we had 10 teams added to the HS meet at the last minute and unfortunately I let that undercut some of my preparation for the elementary races throughout the day on Friday. Because there are so many great teams and coaches in this area I think we have the opportunity to make this meet the finest elementary meet in KY and we will make some important changes going forward. Most notably, we have already made plans to add chip timing to the elementary races next year. We have already received some good feedback on improving the starting area with box assignments and ropes to separate fans and runners. We will ensure that some port-a-potties are nearby for athletes and fans. Thanks for any additional feedback. Next year will make our 3rd year of the elementary races and we hope that all of you will continue to attend and help us continue to make the meet better. All elementary results are now posted. As you look through the results please let me know if you see any of your runners misplaced. Unfortunately, our very wonderful volunteer that recorded most of the placings wrote 0's that looked remarkably like 6's. I will continue to work with Jon Grooms of KYTrackXC to make sure that we get these results as accurate as possible going forward. You can help me by emailing the competitor number (or name) of missing or misplaced runners, their approximate placing, and which race they contested. I love seeing so many young athletes passionate about the sport of cross country and want to ensure that all earn the recognition that they well deserve!
Thanks for all of the feedback. As the meet director for the elementary races I would agree with many of your critiques of the races.

This is a note that I just sent to all participating coaches.

For our elementary coaches I want to issue an apology and thanks (for your patience). We were (very positively) overwhelmed by the number of elementary entrants. I will make no excuses but apologize that we were not more well-prepared. With the weather on the east coast we had 10 teams added to the HS meet at the last minute and unfortunately I let that undercut some of my preparation for the elementary races throughout the day on Friday.

Because there are so many great teams and coaches in this area I think we have the opportunity to make this meet the finest elementary meet in KY and we will make some important changes going forward. Most notably, we have already made plans to add chip timing to the elementary races next year.

We have already received some good feedback on improving the starting area with box assignments and ropes to separate fans and runners. We will ensure that some port-a-potties are nearby for athletes and fans.

Thanks for any additional feedback. Next year will make our 3rd year of the elementary races and we hope that all of you will continue to attend and help us continue to make the meet better.

All elementary results are now posted. As you look through the results please let me know if you see any of your runners misplaced. Unfortunately, our very wonderful volunteer that recorded most of the placings wrote 0's that looked remarkably like 6's. I will continue to work with Jon Grooms of KYTrackXC to make sure that we get these results as accurate as possible going forward.

You can help me by emailing the competitor number (or name) of missing or misplaced runners, their approximate placing, and which race they contested.

I love seeing so many young athletes passionate about the sport of cross country and want to ensure that all earn the recognition that they well deserve!
10/06/2015 1:06:11 AM
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I am sorry to bring it up again, but the 2000m time is now the best in the nation. Nation leading times should be correct. We do not want to be know as a second-rate state in terms of time keeping. Sorry to keep bothering you but it must be corrected.
I am sorry to bring it up again, but the 2000m time is now the best in the nation. Nation leading times should be correct.
We do not want to be know as a second-rate state in terms of time keeping. Sorry to keep bothering you but it must be corrected.
10/06/2015 11:41:01 AM
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@KYinNC I would suggest either emailing Jonathan directly or creating a new thread. You are right, there is clearly an error because both the boys and girls time from the Wayne County Inv are pretty much the top 10 2000m times for the season. But addressing this issue under the thread for Greater Louisville Classic makes it seem as though you are saying this race is the one in dispute, which it is not. It is a completely different race. I do agree that it does make our record keeping seem somewhat inaccurate, so it would be good to have it fixed.
@KYinNC

I would suggest either emailing Jonathan directly or creating a new thread. You are right, there is clearly an error because both the boys and girls time from the Wayne County Inv are pretty much the top 10 2000m times for the season. But addressing this issue under the thread for Greater Louisville Classic makes it seem as though you are saying this race is the one in dispute, which it is not. It is a completely different race. I do agree that it does make our record keeping seem somewhat inaccurate, so it would be good to have it fixed.
10/06/2015 1:06:36 PM
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Thanks @butlercoachxc, I looked at our published GLC results a couple of times and could not figure out which result he was referring to. We have plenty of errors in our results (which we are working to correct) but it appears that error is not in our results but Wayne Co.
Thanks @butlercoachxc, I looked at our published GLC results a couple of times and could not figure out which result he was referring to.

We have plenty of errors in our results (which we are working to correct) but it appears that error is not in our results but Wayne Co.
10/06/2015 1:18:15 PM
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@theMike I thought the meet was run very well and I appreciate Mike getting us in on such late notice.
@theMike
I thought the meet was run very well and I appreciate Mike getting us in on such late notice.
10/06/2015 1:23:25 PM
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[quote=islathletics]Parents are very anxious to get their children's times[/quote] @islathletics And I bet you've had a LOT more parents bugging you about this than kids. That's NOT a shot at you or your program (since I don't know anything about you), but an observation on how out of control things are getting at the elementary level. As a general question, do we really need to chip-time elementary kids to the hundredth of a second? Do the kids even care or remember their time? Ask the average elementary kid what their PR is and most of them won't be able to tell you. It's all for us parents (yes, I have an elementary-aged runner and no, I don't hound people to find out what his time was.). Along a similar line, why are we even worrying about who the national elementary leader is at 2k? Why does such a list even need to exist? There will be practically zero similarities between that list and the top lists when those kids get older. As an example, go back and look at the top of the MOC results for 2009 when today's seniors were 6th-graders. There are more names you won't recognize than those you do. I was at my son's meet yesterday, and the parent or coach (maybe both?) of the kid leading one of the races was jumping up and down and asking "How bad do you want it?" This kid was below 4th grade. At another meet a different coach was berating an 8-year-old kid during a race for letting the team down with their performance. It's wonderful that we have such good numbers out running XC in elementary school, but we need to keep our heads about us and lighten up on the kids. Most of them won't even be running by the time they get to HS.
islathletics wrote:
Parents are very anxious to get their children's times


@islathletics

And I bet you've had a LOT more parents bugging you about this than kids. That's NOT a shot at you or your program (since I don't know anything about you), but an observation on how out of control things are getting at the elementary level.

As a general question, do we really need to chip-time elementary kids to the hundredth of a second? Do the kids even care or remember their time? Ask the average elementary kid what their PR is and most of them won't be able to tell you. It's all for us parents (yes, I have an elementary-aged runner and no, I don't hound people to find out what his time was.).

Along a similar line, why are we even worrying about who the national elementary leader is at 2k? Why does such a list even need to exist? There will be practically zero similarities between that list and the top lists when those kids get older. As an example, go back and look at the top of the MOC results for 2009 when today's seniors were 6th-graders. There are more names you won't recognize than those you do.

I was at my son's meet yesterday, and the parent or coach (maybe both?) of the kid leading one of the races was jumping up and down and asking "How bad do you want it?" This kid was below 4th grade. At another meet a different coach was berating an 8-year-old kid during a race for letting the team down with their performance.

It's wonderful that we have such good numbers out running XC in elementary school, but we need to keep our heads about us and lighten up on the kids. Most of them won't even be running by the time they get to HS.
10/06/2015 2:43:28 PM
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@BCrumbo Great points. Both my boys ran in middle school and high school (both graduated now), and at times I was more concerned with their performance than I should have been. I think that, for the growth of the sport, distance running must be "fun" for the kids that are starting out. Let's face it - playing a game of soccer, lacrosse, or basketball is almost always "fun", whereas going out and running an interval workout can rarely be described as such. There is a time to press a kid when he/she does not perform up to expectations, but elementary school is not that time. On top of that, national rankings in CC are inaccurate anyway due to wild differences in course difficulty and weather conditions. Bottom line - these parents need to chill and let their kids enjoy the sport.
@BCrumbo

Great points. Both my boys ran in middle school and high school (both graduated now), and at times I was more concerned with their performance than I should have been. I think that, for the growth of the sport, distance running must be "fun" for the kids that are starting out. Let's face it - playing a game of soccer, lacrosse, or basketball is almost always "fun", whereas going out and running an interval workout can rarely be described as such. There is a time to press a kid when he/she does not perform up to expectations, but elementary school is not that time. On top of that, national rankings in CC are inaccurate anyway due to wild differences in course difficulty and weather conditions. Bottom line - these parents need to chill and let their kids enjoy the sport.
10/06/2015 3:02:47 PM
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@BCrumbo While there might be things that I agree with you about when it comes to over zealous parents (and at times I can be one of them), I don't think it is wise to assume that your way of viewing a situation is the only way or the best way. I would advise being careful with how arguments and opinions are presented. Laying out an opinion as an absolute is not smart and can be easily disproven. There are many ways to go about developing athletes and I think we both know that there is not a standard way that works for all kids. With that being a basic understanding, some kids will thrive under a non competitive environment but others will thrive off of a more competitive, disciplined environment. When I was a high school coach I actually was very frustrated with the kids that came to me thinking running was just about having fun and not an actual competitive sport. It often took a couple of years to draw that competitive spirit out of them and others never could adapt. That is just one simple example of why I don't think it should only be about having fun but rather about developing proper character (my opinion, not a moral absolute necessarily). I really don't see much point in any sport if it isn't to help them become a better person. While I am stating my opinion, I might as well give my thoughts on fun. What is fun anyway? Its arbitrary to the individual. Obviously there are some norms that we accept as fun but in the current day and age I think it would be wise to steer away from most of societies norms (and I include the concept of fun as one of the concepts that I am in opposition against). I prefer the concept of joy over fun at all times. I teach my kids and runners to embrace hard things and look forward to them, as it is from this that we see true growth. Enjoy the trial and pain of the workout because it is this very pain that produces great rewards. When we begin to understand this concept we then actually begin to find joy in hard things and the greater joy that comes with the rewards! Of course this philosophy is not my own but based off of biblical theology of Christ sufferings and the perseverance of true christians!
@BCrumbo

While there might be things that I agree with you about when it comes to over zealous parents (and at times I can be one of them), I don't think it is wise to assume that your way of viewing a situation is the only way or the best way. I would advise being careful with how arguments and opinions are presented. Laying out an opinion as an absolute is not smart and can be easily disproven. There are many ways to go about developing athletes and I think we both know that there is not a standard way that works for all kids. With that being a basic understanding, some kids will thrive under a non competitive environment but others will thrive off of a more competitive, disciplined environment.

When I was a high school coach I actually was very frustrated with the kids that came to me thinking running was just about having fun and not an actual competitive sport. It often took a couple of years to draw that competitive spirit out of them and others never could adapt. That is just one simple example of why I don't think it should only be about having fun but rather about developing proper character (my opinion, not a moral absolute necessarily). I really don't see much point in any sport if it isn't to help them become a better person.

While I am stating my opinion, I might as well give my thoughts on fun. What is fun anyway? Its arbitrary to the individual. Obviously there are some norms that we accept as fun but in the current day and age I think it would be wise to steer away from most of societies norms (and I include the concept of fun as one of the concepts that I am in opposition against). I prefer the concept of joy over fun at all times. I teach my kids and runners to embrace hard things and look forward to them, as it is from this that we see true growth. Enjoy the trial and pain of the workout because it is this very pain that produces great rewards. When we begin to understand this concept we then actually begin to find joy in hard things and the greater joy that comes with the rewards! Of course this philosophy is not my own but based off of biblical theology of Christ sufferings and the perseverance of true christians!
10/06/2015 3:40:36 PM
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@butlercoachxc Most anything you read on a message board is opinion, and so is my post. I don't believe I stated anything as fact; I just posed some questions and made some observations. No, I don't think my way is the only way, but of course I think it's the best way. If I didn't, wouldn't I adopt a different view? Or should I just keep my view to myself so as not to offend anybody? I never mentioned fun in my post. I preach to my kids all the time that hard work and fun are not mutually exclusive things, and winning is fun, too. But I'm about balance and perspective, and my observations tell me that at the elementary level, we parents tend to care a whole lot more about these things than the kids themselves do.
@butlercoachxc

Most anything you read on a message board is opinion, and so is my post. I don't believe I stated anything as fact; I just posed some questions and made some observations. No, I don't think my way is the only way, but of course I think it's the best way. If I didn't, wouldn't I adopt a different view? Or should I just keep my view to myself so as not to offend anybody?

I never mentioned fun in my post. I preach to my kids all the time that hard work and fun are not mutually exclusive things, and winning is fun, too. But I'm about balance and perspective, and my observations tell me that at the elementary level, we parents tend to care a whole lot more about these things than the kids themselves do.
10/06/2015 4:04:25 PM
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@butlercoachxc Wow. I am not sure of where to start. First, while your comments were directed at BCrumbo, I think they were intended to reply to my post. Second, of course these are each of our own opinions, and I think we all agree that none of us holds a monopoly on what is "right" - opinions are just that, and nothing more. Third, if you read carefully, you will find that I was referring to elementary school kids, not high school.
@butlercoachxc

Wow. I am not sure of where to start. First, while your comments were directed at BCrumbo, I think they were intended to reply to my post. Second, of course these are each of our own opinions, and I think we all agree that none of us holds a monopoly on what is "right" - opinions are just that, and nothing more. Third, if you read carefully, you will find that I was referring to elementary school kids, not high school.
10/06/2015 5:07:01 PM
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Actually I was typing that before I saw your post. But these are all clearly our opinions. That is how I addressed it. It was the way in which it was expressed that I was referring. Of course you are free to offer your opinion without the care of offending but in a forum I believe it is also pretty understood that we can respond to those opinions. If a response to your opinion offends you then I wouldn't think it be a good idea to post your opinion on an open forum. Btw, my response wasn't actually meant as an attack on your opinion but rather another view to consider for those that enjoy reading this message board.
Actually I was typing that before I saw your post. But these are all clearly our opinions. That is how I addressed it. It was the way in which it was expressed that I was referring. Of course you are free to offer your opinion without the care of offending but in a forum I believe it is also pretty understood that we can respond to those opinions. If a response to your opinion offends you then I wouldn't think it be a good idea to post your opinion on an open forum.

Btw, my response wasn't actually meant as an attack on your opinion but rather another view to consider for those that enjoy reading this message board.
10/06/2015 5:12:34 PM
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Cctrackdude, if you read my post it doesn't refer to either high school or elementary. Although I was referring to all athletes in general, it was more directed towards younger athletes and how they are being developed in this current society.
Cctrackdude, if you read my post it doesn't refer to either high school or elementary. Although I was referring to all athletes in general, it was more directed towards younger athletes and how they are being developed in this current society.
10/06/2015 5:36:11 PM
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Are we talking regular runners or club runners?
Are we talking regular runners or club runners?
10/07/2015 2:09:52 PM
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@BCrumbo Do we need to chip time every race? No. But there are races that have so many runners, or teams that do track their times and results and having accurate times is nice. As for kids not really paying attention to their times, our kids know what they are running. We don't harp on them needing to win or be the best runner in the field but we do stress their p.r.'s. We use them as a means for growth and improvement. The kids know their best times and try very hard to beat them each week and are very excited when they are able to reach their new goal.
@BCrumbo
Do we need to chip time every race? No. But there are races that have so many runners, or teams that do track their times and results and having accurate times is nice.

As for kids not really paying attention to their times, our kids know what they are running. We don't harp on them needing to win or be the best runner in the field but we do stress their p.r.'s. We use them as a means for growth and improvement. The kids know their best times and try very hard to beat them each week and are very excited when they are able to reach their new goal.
10/08/2015 7:46:46 PM
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Looks like this is the best place to thank Mike Horan for letting us and others into the high school race last Thursday morning when travel to North Carolina began to look untenable. I was able to change our travel plans from Charlotte to Louisville during my morning classes because Mike was so quick to let us in. We had a great time in Louisville as always, and I thought that the high school portion of the race came off great. We will definitely come back. Allen Etheridge Oak Ridge (TN)
Looks like this is the best place to thank Mike Horan for letting us and others into the high school race last Thursday morning when travel to North Carolina began to look untenable. I was able to change our travel plans from Charlotte to Louisville during my morning classes because Mike was so quick to let us in. We had a great time in Louisville as always, and I thought that the high school portion of the race came off great. We will definitely come back.

Allen Etheridge
Oak Ridge (TN)

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