20 Points (16:24 avg time) and 18:57 avg time
11/13/2012 12:18:11 PM
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How is everyone not talking about how amazing it is that St. Xavier scored 20 total point at a State meet with an average time of 16:24 with only 11 sec separating 1 from 5. That is one of the most amazing things I have ever seen. Then Assumption girls dropping an average time that would win single A place 2nd in AA and top ten in AAA. I don't care if your public or private that is outstanding. There are lots of private schools and none are doing this. WOW!!!!!!
How is everyone not talking about how amazing it is that St. Xavier scored 20 total point at a State meet with an average time of 16:24 with only 11 sec separating 1 from 5. That is one of the most amazing things I have ever seen. Then Assumption girls dropping an average time that would win single A place 2nd in AA and top ten in AAA. I don't care if your public or private that is outstanding. There are lots of private schools and none are doing this. WOW!!!!!!
11/13/2012 2:13:59 PM
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Good points! I guess the reason there is so little chatter is because people expected it after their dominating season. I wonder if this was the deepest field ever at the state meet. At least on the girls side. it seems like the top 6 teams were all very, very good. This year's junior class may be the best class of girls to ever graduate from KY. 25 of the top 50 in AAA girls were juniors. That is remarkable.
Good points! I guess the reason there is so little chatter is because people expected it after their dominating season.

I wonder if this was the deepest field ever at the state meet. At least on the girls side. it seems like the top 6 teams were all very, very good. This year's junior class may be the best class of girls to ever graduate from KY. 25 of the top 50 in AAA girls were juniors. That is remarkable.
11/13/2012 3:33:41 PM
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@theMike Was it the deepest year ever? I looked at some stats over the last 10 years, and in terms of raw numbers, you could say it was...depending on your definition of depth. Let's look at some numbers. Going back 10 years, below are the raw numbers for girls for sub-18:00, sub-19:00, sub-20:00, and the 50th best time: Year 50th sub-18 sub-19 sub-20 2003 20:27 1 7 31 2004 20:22 1 4 25 2005 20:01 0 5 47 2006 20:09 0 3 40 2007 19:46 0 8 71 2008 19:55 3 12 57 2009 19:54 1 10 56 2010 19:50 2 13 63 2011 19:42 2 19 68 2012 19:32 3 17 83 So we had more sub-20:00 girls than ever by a significant margin, but not sub-19 girls. You can also see by this a steady decline in the 50th best time in the state. Here are the boys numbers: 50th sub-15 sub-16 sub-17 2003 16:56 0 7 60 2004 16:59 0 5 51 2005 16:45 1 8 82 2006 16:40 0 5 85 2007 16:33 0 6 113 2008 16:28 0 12 119 2009 16:32 0 14 100 2010 16:34 0 16 112 2011 16:33 1 17 128 2012 16:31 1 15 133 Again, we had the most sub-17 performers in the period, but not the most sub-16. The 50th best time seems to have stalled out over the last few years. Looking at these numbers, it looks like 2007 was a real breakthrough year for our state for some reason. Both boys and girls numbers take a significant jump that year and haven't gone back down to where they were before that. So by raw numbers, it looks like we have more depth. What concerns me is that it looks like that depth is concentrated in a very small number of teams. Of those 83 sub-20 girls, 38 of them (46%) are on just 8 teams (Assumption, Bowling Green, Sacred Heart, Manual, Daviess Co., Oldham Co., Highlands, South Oldham). Likewise, of the 133 boys that were sub-17, 56 of them (42%) are on just 8 teams (X, Trinity, Daviess Co., Apollo, North Hardin, North Oldham, South Oldham, St. Henry). So while we have greater raw depth than ever, it looks like we're getting more and more top-heavy. Thoughts?
@theMike

Was it the deepest year ever? I looked at some stats over the last 10 years, and in terms of raw numbers, you could say it was...depending on your definition of depth. Let's look at some numbers. Going back 10 years, below are the raw numbers for girls for sub-18:00, sub-19:00, sub-20:00, and the 50th best time:

Year 50th sub-18 sub-19 sub-20
2003 20:27 1 7 31
2004 20:22 1 4 25
2005 20:01 0 5 47
2006 20:09 0 3 40
2007 19:46 0 8 71
2008 19:55 3 12 57
2009 19:54 1 10 56
2010 19:50 2 13 63
2011 19:42 2 19 68
2012 19:32 3 17 83

So we had more sub-20:00 girls than ever by a significant margin, but not sub-19 girls. You can also see by this a steady decline in the 50th best time in the state. Here are the boys numbers:

50th sub-15 sub-16 sub-17
2003 16:56 0 7 60
2004 16:59 0 5 51
2005 16:45 1 8 82
2006 16:40 0 5 85
2007 16:33 0 6 113
2008 16:28 0 12 119
2009 16:32 0 14 100
2010 16:34 0 16 112
2011 16:33 1 17 128
2012 16:31 1 15 133

Again, we had the most sub-17 performers in the period, but not the most sub-16. The 50th best time seems to have stalled out over the last few years. Looking at these numbers, it looks like 2007 was a real breakthrough year for our state for some reason. Both boys and girls numbers take a significant jump that year and haven't gone back down to where they were before that.

So by raw numbers, it looks like we have more depth. What concerns me is that it looks like that depth is concentrated in a very small number of teams. Of those 83 sub-20 girls, 38 of them (46%) are on just 8 teams (Assumption, Bowling Green, Sacred Heart, Manual, Daviess Co., Oldham Co., Highlands, South Oldham). Likewise, of the 133 boys that were sub-17, 56 of them (42%) are on just 8 teams (X, Trinity, Daviess Co., Apollo, North Hardin, North Oldham, South Oldham, St. Henry).

So while we have greater raw depth than ever, it looks like we're getting more and more top-heavy. Thoughts?
11/13/2012 4:33:44 PM
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What everyone's thoughts on the AA guys race and the performances from that race? I thought it was almost an outstandingly slow race, not to take anything away from the athletes who competed (heck, I used to be a AA kid). But it seems that year after year this race produces a relatively low average compared to A and AAA and this years race was slow relative to previous year's AA races. Could this be due to the fact that 15 teams were represented within the top 20 and 22 teams in the top 30? I'm just curious what greater minds than myself thing, especially since theres always a special place in my heart for that AA state race.
What everyone's thoughts on the AA guys race and the performances from that race? I thought it was almost an outstandingly slow race, not to take anything away from the athletes who competed (heck, I used to be a AA kid). But it seems that year after year this race produces a relatively low average compared to A and AAA and this years race was slow relative to previous year's AA races. Could this be due to the fact that 15 teams were represented within the top 20 and 22 teams in the top 30? I'm just curious what greater minds than myself thing, especially since theres always a special place in my heart for that AA state race.
11/13/2012 5:17:59 PM
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I also am surprised about the fact that nobody has mentioned St. X's 20. It is a very impresive achievement. I hope this team realizes the greatness of their achievement. It's not just enough to be a great team, but to run to your best potentional as a team. That's something special, that doesn't happen everyday. I got to talk to Howard Shoaf (Finished 8th in 1986 when Trinity scored 20 points) about that kind of experience as a runner on a great team. The team finished 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th & 36th. (Yes, the sophomore who finished 36th got sooooo much crap at school for not finishing in the top 10 like his teammates) Trinity had dominated all year long, winning all but one meet, losing to Cincinnati Elder at a meet without their 4th runner. (A retro-rankings done on-line ranked Trinity #2 and Elder #6 in the nation) After the state meet, and they got into the van to go home. The 9th place finisher said to coach, "Coach, I'm not upset and I don't wanna complain, because I did finish 9th at State, but I didn't even count." Howie said it sunk in after he made those comments just how great of a race the team had that day. Coach Medly reminds me so much of my high school coach. I really hope he can continue to coach and guide young men just same for many years. Even if that makes it dificult for Trinity to win a state title.
I also am surprised about the fact that nobody has mentioned St. X's 20. It is a very impresive achievement.

I hope this team realizes the greatness of their achievement. It's not just enough to be a great team, but to run to your best potentional as a team. That's something special, that doesn't happen everyday.

I got to talk to Howard Shoaf (Finished 8th in 1986 when Trinity scored 20 points) about that kind of experience as a runner on a great team. The team finished 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th & 36th. (Yes, the sophomore who finished 36th got sooooo much crap at school for not finishing in the top 10 like his teammates) Trinity had dominated all year long, winning all but one meet, losing to Cincinnati Elder at a meet without their 4th runner. (A retro-rankings done on-line ranked Trinity #2 and Elder #6 in the nation) After the state meet, and they got into the van to go home. The 9th place finisher said to coach, "Coach, I'm not upset and I don't wanna complain, because I did finish 9th at State, but I didn't even count." Howie said it sunk in after he made those comments just how great of a race the team had that day.

Coach Medly reminds me so much of my high school coach. I really hope he can continue to coach and guide young men just same for many years. Even if that makes it dificult for Trinity to win a state title.
11/13/2012 5:23:28 PM
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@Trinity_Stats97 And, to be honest, I would argue that St X definitely wasn't hitting on all cylnders at State this weekend too.
@Trinity_Stats97
And, to be honest, I would argue that St X definitely wasn't hitting on all cylnders at State this weekend too.
11/13/2012 5:57:18 PM
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@theMike I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with. Based upon Assumption's coach saying the local paper had not written about his teams efforts this year, I would assume the city of Louisville does not care about these teams either. Far different from the Owensboro Messenger's following of their local CC teams. (Daviess, Apollo, and O Cath) It is hard, at least for me, to get worked up for a couple of private metro schools who have more runners on their respective teams than there are runners on ALL teams put together in most regions! I do wish those teams well at regions and Nationals if they should make it, not for the school but for the students.
@theMike
I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with.

Based upon Assumption's coach saying the local paper had not written about his teams efforts this year, I would assume the city of Louisville does not care about these teams either. Far different from the Owensboro Messenger's following of their local CC teams. (Daviess, Apollo, and O Cath)

It is hard, at least for me, to get worked up for a couple of private metro schools who have more runners on their respective teams than there are runners on ALL teams put together in most regions!

I do wish those teams well at regions and Nationals if they should make it, not for the school but for the students.
11/13/2012 6:03:16 PM
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While watching X at State was impressive, you should have seen them at Region. They went conservative the first mile, then started pushing. As a pack, it was so impressive just watching them all leave my guys.
While watching X at State was impressive, you should have seen them at Region. They went conservative the first mile, then started pushing. As a pack, it was so impressive just watching them all leave my guys.
11/13/2012 7:08:33 PM
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@lowmiler I'd argue with you but I don't want to make you mad to the point where you'd threaten to punch me like you did with Rick Hill, or cuss me out via email, like you did with his wife. Sooooooooo ........... yes lowmiler, you're right yet again! Remarkable insight you've got there!
@lowmiler
I'd argue with you but I don't want to make you mad to the point where you'd threaten to punch me like you did with Rick Hill, or cuss me out via email, like you did with his wife. Sooooooooo ........... yes lowmiler, you're right yet again! Remarkable insight you've got there!
11/13/2012 7:09:38 PM
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[quote=lowmiler]@theMike I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with. @lowmiler Guess we know who leeanderson spends most of their time with.....
lowmiler wrote:
@theMike
I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with.

@lowmiler
Guess we know who leeanderson spends most of their time with.....
11/13/2012 11:33:15 PM
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@professor Actually Professor you know only part truths with your assertions. We had a difference of opinion concerning The Hills uprooting a child, and sending off his other child, (for that matter), for the sake of running in high school. But truly I could not care less anyway, your opinion or theirs. Attending this forum, off and on, for the last six or seven years, I have realized that this forum is skewered based on a large contingent of posters from the Louisville area cc community. And as such the opinions are not necessarily mirrored out in the state, as they here on this forum. Actually I did not follow that Franklin thread. I do not know leeanderson, or any of you for that matter. I did read the early remarks concerning his opinion on private schools, particularly the Louisville area Catholic schools. And knew what exactly the rebuttal coming, word for word. But we can discuss all you would like as I will be in Louisville this weekend. Just drop me a note.
@professor

Actually Professor you know only part truths with your assertions. We had a difference of opinion concerning The Hills uprooting a child, and sending off his other child, (for that matter), for the sake of running in high school. But truly I could not care less anyway, your opinion or theirs.

Attending this forum, off and on, for the last six or seven years, I have realized that this forum is skewered based on a large contingent of posters from the Louisville area cc community. And as such the opinions are not necessarily mirrored out in the state, as they here on this forum.

Actually I did not follow that Franklin thread. I do not know leeanderson, or any of you for that matter. I did read the early remarks concerning his opinion on private schools, particularly the Louisville area Catholic schools. And knew what exactly the rebuttal coming, word for word.

But we can discuss all you would like as I will be in Louisville this weekend. Just drop me a note.
11/14/2012 1:39:13 AM
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[quote=lowmiler]@theMike I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with. [/quote] @lowmiler Maybe you should talk to more people then! Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I'm a coach from a public school, a public school that has had a decent amount of success over the last half decade, a public school that is NOT in the Louisville Metro, and I for one ABSOLUTELY care about the success of St. Xavier, Trinity, Assumption, etc. I want to thank St. X, Trinity, Assumption, and Sacred Heart for raising the bar. I want to thank these schools for making us all strive to be better. I want to thank these schools for putting Kentucky on the map... so that when my team achieves greatness (and we will) we won't be ignored by the national XC media, because thanks to these schools attention is NOW focused on Kentucky. Coach Medley and Coach Hayworth have achieved greatness, something that we all strive for as coaches. I for one applaud the both of them! It's been fun watching what both of you have created. Having said that, I want to say, we are coming for you! I for one am taking notes. I am learning from the best. And sooner rather than later we will get you! Thank you for setting the bar high, and thank you for setting a positive example for what all Kentucky problem should strive to be like.
lowmiler wrote:
@theMike
I think the problem with there being "no chatter" about St Xavier or Assumption's victories are because they are private schools located in the most populous area of the state, (Louisville). Out side of Louisville no one really cares about either team. At least those who I talk with.


@lowmiler

Maybe you should talk to more people then! Maybe I'm not in the norm, but I'm a coach from a public school, a public school that has had a decent amount of success over the last half decade, a public school that is NOT in the Louisville Metro, and I for one ABSOLUTELY care about the success of St. Xavier, Trinity, Assumption, etc.

I want to thank St. X, Trinity, Assumption, and Sacred Heart for raising the bar. I want to thank these schools for making us all strive to be better. I want to thank these schools for putting Kentucky on the map... so that when my team achieves greatness (and we will) we won't be ignored by the national XC media, because thanks to these schools attention is NOW focused on Kentucky.

Coach Medley and Coach Hayworth have achieved greatness, something that we all strive for as coaches. I for one applaud the both of them! It's been fun watching what both of you have created.

Having said that, I want to say, we are coming for you! I for one am taking notes. I am learning from the best. And sooner rather than later we will get you! Thank you for setting the bar high, and thank you for setting a positive example for what all Kentucky problem should strive to be like.
11/14/2012 4:57:56 AM
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@lowmiler Nice attempt at spin, but after all the little jabs you've tossed at me over the years, you should know I'll never let you live that episode down, haha. I'll be honest and say I appreciate your finally rooting at least for the kids whose schools you love to hate, and give you credit for being a kinder, gentler lowmiler these days, how's that? But no, your comments - which I must say are equally predictable - remind me that all great stories need a hero and a villain, a protagonist and an antagonist, and so when you have private schools or anyone else succeeding on a high level, the story isn't complete without the lowmilers and leeandersons who will criticize that success. It's all part of the game, so I don't take it personally at this point and think you've got every right to your opinion, just as I have to mine. So, you'll be here for NCAAs? Great, feel free to pull me aside and say hi or take a swing, haha, whatever's closer to how you feel at that particular moment.
@lowmiler
Nice attempt at spin, but after all the little jabs you've tossed at me over the years, you should know I'll never let you live that episode down, haha. I'll be honest and say I appreciate your finally rooting at least for the kids whose schools you love to hate, and give you credit for being a kinder, gentler lowmiler these days, how's that? But no, your comments - which I must say are equally predictable - remind me that all great stories need a hero and a villain, a protagonist and an antagonist, and so when you have private schools or anyone else succeeding on a high level, the story isn't complete without the lowmilers and leeandersons who will criticize that success. It's all part of the game, so I don't take it personally at this point and think you've got every right to your opinion, just as I have to mine.

So, you'll be here for NCAAs? Great, feel free to pull me aside and say hi or take a swing, haha, whatever's closer to how you feel at that particular moment.
11/14/2012 8:14:41 AM
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@professor I do not diminish the accomplishments of the respective teams, X or Assumption. I would dare say both teams have a second team that could be top ten in the state. As for the coaching jobs done by Professor and Medley has been from an outsiders point of view; outstanding. I do not see much of either school, living in Western Kentucky. But I did see some of Professors early 2000 teams run and they were a "long purple line" of slow lumbering girls. He has, in fairness, brought them along nicely. Medley has been there all along. He has just stockpiled more talent this year. My issue has never been with the teams per se, but with how those teams are assembled. And the inherent advantage for these schools to attract students, or recruit, from such a large populous. They are like Louisville all-star teams. With Louisville having 275,000 and a large population just on the other side of the river, that is a massive base to attract students. Take Owensboro, population 60,000, without open enrollment, Tony and Bo being able to compete with the four Louisville Catholic schools is remarkable. Owensboro has more of a running culture than does Louisville. They have three high schools and all of them has won or finished top three in the state in Cross country. The talent is spread. That is not the case in Louisville. The four Catholics schools has stripped the other schools of their most talented runners, for the most part. (I know there are a few exceptions here and there.) I realize one or two teams will sneak up and make some noise from time to time, but for the most part they are just "meat" for the taking. Anyway, good luck to these teams. I hope they do well.
@professor

I do not diminish the accomplishments of the respective teams, X or Assumption. I would dare say both teams have a second team that could be top ten in the state. As for the coaching jobs done by Professor and Medley has been from an outsiders point of view; outstanding. I do not see much of either school, living in Western Kentucky. But I did see some of Professors early 2000 teams run and they were a "long purple line" of slow lumbering girls. He has, in fairness, brought them along nicely. Medley has been there all along. He has just stockpiled more talent this year.

My issue has never been with the teams per se, but with how those teams are assembled. And the inherent advantage for these schools to attract students, or recruit, from such a large populous. They are like Louisville all-star teams. With Louisville having 275,000 and a large population just on the other side of the river, that is a massive base to attract students. Take Owensboro, population 60,000, without open enrollment, Tony and Bo being able to compete with the four Louisville Catholic schools is remarkable.

Owensboro has more of a running culture than does Louisville. They have three high schools and all of them has won or finished top three in the state in Cross country. The talent is spread. That is not the case in Louisville. The four Catholics schools has stripped the other schools of their most talented runners, for the most part. (I know there are a few exceptions here and there.) I realize one or two teams will sneak up and make some noise from time to time, but for the most part they are just "meat" for the taking.

Anyway, good luck to these teams. I hope they do well.
11/14/2012 9:14:11 AM
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OK OK OK....... yes these schools are private. But there are lots or private schools even in the Louisville metro area that don't even come close to what these schools did at state. Great job runners on those teams and great job coaches. The only question is do you think you can top it ..... Perfect 15 maybe....hahahaha. Hey lowmiler.... shut up, your boring.
OK OK OK....... yes these schools are private. But there are lots or private schools even in the Louisville metro area that don't even come close to what these schools did at state. Great job runners on those teams and great job coaches. The only question is do you think you can top it ..... Perfect 15 maybe....hahahaha. Hey lowmiler.... shut up, your boring.
11/14/2012 11:56:21 AM
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@Trinity_Stats97 Thank you, that is by far the greatest compliment any coach could receive. Rich Rostel will continue to be the standard that all coaches should aspire. Him and Coach Cooper.
@Trinity_Stats97
Thank you, that is by far the greatest compliment any coach could receive. Rich Rostel will continue to be the standard that all coaches should aspire. Him and Coach Cooper.
11/14/2012 1:56:20 PM
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@charlie I like you Charlie.I think you are dreaming and living in a fantasy world tainted by the fact that you have not yet coached against these two powerhouses in High School cross country yet. With your positive attitude you will get the chance.You said you were learning from the best, well the Best just retired. I hope you paid close attention to what he was able to accomplish over the years and the amount of respect he received for his methods and the way he not only molded great runners but fine young men, which should be the ultimate goal.Whenever you win your first state high school championship in cross country remind me that I promised to buy you a steak dinner and if I still have all my teeth I'll join you.
@charlie I like you Charlie.I think you are dreaming and living in a fantasy world tainted by the fact that you have not yet coached against these two powerhouses in High School cross country yet. With your positive attitude you will get the chance.You said you were learning from the best, well the Best just retired. I hope you paid close attention to what he was able to accomplish over the years and the amount of respect he received for his methods and the way he not only molded great runners but fine young men, which should be the ultimate goal.Whenever you win your first state high school championship in cross country remind me that I promised to buy you a steak dinner and if I still have all my teeth I'll join you.
11/14/2012 2:13:49 PM
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[quote=leeanderson]You said you were learning from the best, well the Best just retired.[/quote] @leeanderson Who just retired?
leeanderson wrote:
You said you were learning from the best, well the Best just retired.

@leeanderson

Who just retired?
11/14/2012 2:15:39 PM
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Jerry Mohr? who else retired? I really just wish that the people on this board were brave enough to post using identifiable names...
Jerry Mohr? who else retired?

I really just wish that the people on this board were brave enough to post using identifiable names...
11/14/2012 2:39:10 PM
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@runpinkbunny Brian, I'm with you. I'd like to know who lowmiler and flavaflav are. Maybe if we're all at Nationals on Saturday, we could sit down and have a person to person group conversation.
@runpinkbunny
Brian, I'm with you. I'd like to know who lowmiler and flavaflav are. Maybe if we're all at Nationals on Saturday, we could sit down and have a person to person group conversation.

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