Schools that Combine to make a team.
10/02/2012 10:08:13 AM
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How many schools combine other schools simply to make up a team. Now that the NEW regulations are in place for MOC, how many schools will that effect? We use two Middle schools and several Elementary schools just to make up a team. I understand the logic of the new regulation but am courious of how many it will affect?
How many schools combine other schools simply to make up a team. Now that the NEW regulations are in place for MOC, how many schools will that effect?
We use two Middle schools and several Elementary schools just to make up a team. I understand the logic of the new regulation but am courious of how many it will affect?
10/02/2012 10:12:08 AM
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@Tridad7436 St. Henry
@Tridad7436
St. Henry
10/02/2012 2:06:22 PM
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I do not understand how the rules can be changed mid-season. We have competed in state for the last three years with no issue but now that our team of 6 to 8 total kids from a small district (who were middle of the pack last year) worked their butts off to become noticed, suddenly they are denied access to the State tournament due to a [b]new[/b] rule? We have a third of the kids the bigger schools have even though we are combined. They both feed into the same high school and if the town wasn't rural, they would probably combine middle schools and it would be a non-issue. This new rule will only discourage small schools from forming teams and hurt the sport. I doubt whether either of our middle schools will be able to field a team next year.
I do not understand how the rules can be changed mid-season. We have competed in state for the last three years with no issue but now that our team of 6 to 8 total kids from a small district (who were middle of the pack last year) worked their butts off to become noticed, suddenly they are denied access to the State tournament due to a new rule?

We have a third of the kids the bigger schools have even though we are combined. They both feed into the same high school and if the town wasn't rural, they would probably combine middle schools and it would be a non-issue. This new rule will only discourage small schools from forming teams and hurt the sport. I doubt whether either of our middle schools will be able to field a team next year.
10/02/2012 6:34:37 PM
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@Tridad7436 Cooper MS has combined 2 feeder schools which will not be able to compete together now.
@Tridad7436
Cooper MS has combined 2 feeder schools which will not be able to compete together now.
10/02/2012 8:26:25 PM
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What is the new rule? Or where can I read the rule in a rule book?
What is the new rule? Or where can I read the rule in a rule book?
10/02/2012 8:57:27 PM
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http://ky.milesplit.com/discussion/topics/102480
http://ky.milesplit.com/discussion/topics/102480
10/02/2012 9:43:56 PM
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@Kraigschell I don't want to minimize the concerns people have with this rule, but I think this rule is a step in the right direction. Yes, the first time around it will be a tougher pill to swallow and I definitely empathize with those teams who feel caught up in this rule, but as we move into next year, people will adjust and I think things won't seem as bad. I definitely don't see this rule as adversely affecting participation. If a total lack of news coverage (of course, other than here), schools completely ignoring their Cross Country teams, etc, etc, etc, doesn't keep kids from wanting to run, then I don't see this rule getting in anyone's way. I do think the rule was made in the best long run interest of the sport. Elementary and Middle school teams are not governed by HS rules, even though most meets adopt many of those rules (more often than not, it's implicit - although MS and ES meet info should always state what rules they'll follow, they don't). E.g., there is no State or National level MS rule about jewelry, because there is no State or National level rulemaking body, but there is a HS rule and everybody enforces that rule at the MS level as though it's actually a rule. And, while HS rules do define "team", there is no rule at the MS and ES level that govern what does and doesn't constitute a team. This opens the door for several MS programs to combine into one team, but this also opens the door to club teams or all-star teams. In other words, when you cross the threshold of allowing kids to compete for a school they don't attend, you not only get combined MS teams like those described above, but you also invite competition from teams who don't really fit what I believe most people think is in the spirit of school-based competition.
@Kraigschell
I don't want to minimize the concerns people have with this rule, but I think this rule is a step in the right direction. Yes, the first time around it will be a tougher pill to swallow and I definitely empathize with those teams who feel caught up in this rule, but as we move into next year, people will adjust and I think things won't seem as bad. I definitely don't see this rule as adversely affecting participation. If a total lack of news coverage (of course, other than here), schools completely ignoring their Cross Country teams, etc, etc, etc, doesn't keep kids from wanting to run, then I don't see this rule getting in anyone's way.

I do think the rule was made in the best long run interest of the sport. Elementary and Middle school teams are not governed by HS rules, even though most meets adopt many of those rules (more often than not, it's implicit - although MS and ES meet info should always state what rules they'll follow, they don't). E.g., there is no State or National level MS rule about jewelry, because there is no State or National level rulemaking body, but there is a HS rule and everybody enforces that rule at the MS level as though it's actually a rule.

And, while HS rules do define "team", there is no rule at the MS and ES level that govern what does and doesn't constitute a team. This opens the door for several MS programs to combine into one team, but this also opens the door to club teams or all-star teams. In other words, when you cross the threshold of allowing kids to compete for a school they don't attend, you not only get combined MS teams like those described above, but you also invite competition from teams who don't really fit what I believe most people think is in the spirit of school-based competition.
10/03/2012 12:05:06 PM
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@professor Now can we take this one step further and leave middle school out of high school athletics since the KHSAA does not have authority over those athletes?
@professor
Now can we take this one step further and leave middle school out of high school athletics since the KHSAA does not have authority over those athletes?
10/03/2012 12:57:48 PM
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@bigbear3 Sorry, state law prohibits that. KHSAA does govern MS participation in HS athletics, but not competition between middle schools.
@bigbear3
Sorry, state law prohibits that. KHSAA does govern MS participation in HS athletics, but not competition between middle schools.
10/03/2012 1:12:50 PM
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@professor Thank you for a well thought out and straight forward reply. However, there are two points I disagree with: I don't want to minimize the concerns people have with this rule, but I think this rule is a step in the right direction. Yes, the first time around it will be a tougher pill to swallow and I definitely empathize with those teams who feel caught up in this rule, but as we move into next year, people will adjust and I think things won't seem as bad. [b]I understand the point behind the rule. Why wasn't this rule implemented with a season's notice? We have 9 boys on our team and one coach for all middle schools and elementary schools. We were okay to run the last three years but now, we have to find a new coach and recruit at least two kids for the state championship meet which is less than 4 weeks away? Shouldn't this rule wait until next year?[/b] I definitely don't see this rule as adversely affecting participation. If a total lack of news coverage (of course, other than here), schools completely ignoring their Cross Country teams, etc, etc, etc, doesn't keep kids from wanting to run, then I don't see this rule getting in anyone's way. [b]James Madison has 4 middle school runners this year, 3 who are in eigth grade. Browning Springs has 5 Most of them are in 8th grade. We have one coach who is willing to volunteer his time to invest it in these boys future as runners. Who is going to step up for the other school? We had hoped that the success of this team, this ragtag group of believers, would create enthusiasm so that we could build a program here. My son ran state for this team last year and got 227th. He is our second or third best runner this year hoping to finish in the top twenty. These boys have ran for no other goal but to win state all year. This wasn't some all-star team, this is a small group middle school kids who worked hard from the day they left the state meet last year until now with one goal in mind. Now they are taking that away from them, eleven months later, seemingly BECAUSE they worked so hard? Tell me that this will not affect participation. It will destroy it, it's over for one school or the other and enthusiasm will be gone. We try to teach our kids to play by the rules, work hard, set goals and if you give it all you got, then you will be rewarded. We do not usually teach them that is when they change the rules in the middle of the game and force you to sit out and watch the other guys win.[/b]
@professor
Thank you for a well thought out and straight forward reply. However, there are two points I disagree with:

I don't want to minimize the concerns people have with this rule, but I think this rule is a step in the right direction. Yes, the first time around it will be a tougher pill to swallow and I definitely empathize with those teams who feel caught up in this rule, but as we move into next year, people will adjust and I think things won't seem as bad.

I understand the point behind the rule. Why wasn't this rule implemented with a season's notice? We have 9 boys on our team and one coach for all middle schools and elementary schools. We were okay to run the last three years but now, we have to find a new coach and recruit at least two kids for the state championship meet which is less than 4 weeks away? Shouldn't this rule wait until next year?

I definitely don't see this rule as adversely affecting participation. If a total lack of news coverage (of course, other than here), schools completely ignoring their Cross Country teams, etc, etc, etc, doesn't keep kids from wanting to run, then I don't see this rule getting in anyone's way.

James Madison has 4 middle school runners this year, 3 who are in eigth grade. Browning Springs has 5 Most of them are in 8th grade. We have one coach who is willing to volunteer his time to invest it in these boys future as runners. Who is going to step up for the other school? We had hoped that the success of this team, this ragtag group of believers, would create enthusiasm so that we could build a program here. My son ran state for this team last year and got 227th. He is our second or third best runner this year hoping to finish in the top twenty. These boys have ran for no other goal but to win state all year. This wasn't some all-star team, this is a small group middle school kids who worked hard from the day they left the state meet last year until now with one goal in mind. Now they are taking that away from them, eleven months later, seemingly BECAUSE they worked so hard? Tell me that this will not affect participation. It will destroy it, it's over for one school or the other and enthusiasm will be gone. We try to teach our kids to play by the rules, work hard, set goals and if you give it all you got, then you will be rewarded. We do not usually teach them that is when they change the rules in the middle of the game and force you to sit out and watch the other guys win.
10/03/2012 1:39:28 PM
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[quote=Kraigschell]Why wasn't this rule implemented with a season's notice? We have 9 boys on our team and one coach for all middle schools and elementary schools. We were okay to run the last three years but now, we have to find a new coach and recruit at least two kids for the state championship meet which is less than 4 weeks away? Shouldn't this rule wait until next year?[/quote] @Kraigschell I can't answer that one, I'm only an observer in all of this, not part of any rulemaking body. I'd also like to clarify my comment about participation. You're correct, this kind of change can have specific instances where a kid's participation in the MS Championship will be hindered. My point was more overall. This rule prohibits club and combined teams from participating as teams in the MS Championship, but that's it. Kids on club and combined teams can still compete as individuals - as well as run all year long up until the MS Championship. When those kids get to HS, if there's no coach at their school, then even participating as an individual is no longer an option. It is true that if a combined team forms with the goal of going after a MS State Championship, and then this rule causes those kids to give up and decide not to run even as individuals, we will unfortunately lose the participation of those kids. I really do feel for those kids and I agree that this would be a sad outcome if the context is a combined team. As disappointed as I may be for those kids, I do still believe that the rule is in the best long term interest of the sport.
Kraigschell wrote:
Why wasn't this rule implemented with a season's notice? We have 9 boys on our team and one coach for all middle schools and elementary schools. We were okay to run the last three years but now, we have to find a new coach and recruit at least two kids for the state championship meet which is less than 4 weeks away? Shouldn't this rule wait until next year?


@Kraigschell
I can't answer that one, I'm only an observer in all of this, not part of any rulemaking body.

I'd also like to clarify my comment about participation. You're correct, this kind of change can have specific instances where a kid's participation in the MS Championship will be hindered. My point was more overall. This rule prohibits club and combined teams from participating as teams in the MS Championship, but that's it. Kids on club and combined teams can still compete as individuals - as well as run all year long up until the MS Championship. When those kids get to HS, if there's no coach at their school, then even participating as an individual is no longer an option. It is true that if a combined team forms with the goal of going after a MS State Championship, and then this rule causes those kids to give up and decide not to run even as individuals, we will unfortunately lose the participation of those kids. I really do feel for those kids and I agree that this would be a sad outcome if the context is a combined team. As disappointed as I may be for those kids, I do still believe that the rule is in the best long term interest of the sport.
10/03/2012 2:14:07 PM
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The way it looks to me, the two points below will affect my program and the teams in Ft. Thomas. Please clarify if I am incorrect. - First, we have an elementary program "Hammers" who are not affiliated with the school district. It is a club, and privately funded. They will have to race in the open race. - If they attend a school in Ft. Thomas and we offer elementary kids to run for the school, they have to run for my program. Am I correct? 2) To be eligible to compete in the MOC team championship races, a team must be affiliated with a school recognized as part of the Kentucky public or private school systems. 3) Students must run for their school teams in the MOC if their school has a cross country program. Their school is defined as the school that astudent attends for 50% or more of his or her primary educational hours during that season. Students may run up with the team of the school that their current school feeds directly into. If no direct feeder system exists, running up with another school is not permitted.
The way it looks to me, the two points below will affect my program and the teams in Ft. Thomas. Please clarify if I am incorrect.

- First, we have an elementary program "Hammers" who are not affiliated with the school district. It is a club, and privately funded. They will have to race in the open race.
* If they attend a school in Ft. Thomas and we offer elementary kids to run for the school, they have to run for my program.


Am I correct?

2) To be eligible to compete in the MOC team championship races, a team must be affiliated with a school recognized as part of the Kentucky public or private school systems.
3) Students must run for their school teams in the MOC if their school has a cross country program. Their school is defined as the school that astudent attends for 50% or more of his or her primary educational hours during that season. Students may run up with the team of the school that their current school feeds directly into. If no direct feeder system exists, running up with another school is not permitted.
10/03/2012 2:35:24 PM
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[quote=backofthepack]@bigbear3 Sorry, state law prohibits that. KHSAA does govern MS participation in HS athletics, but not competition between middle schools.[/quote] @backofthepack This may not be an answerable question, but how does state law prohibit the KHSAA from making their sports High School only? They succeeded in banning 6th graders from the state meet only a few years ago.
backofthepack wrote:
@bigbear3
Sorry, state law prohibits that. KHSAA does govern MS participation in HS athletics, but not competition between middle schools.


@backofthepack

This may not be an answerable question, but how does state law prohibit the KHSAA from making their sports High School only? They succeeded in banning 6th graders from the state meet only a few years ago.
10/03/2012 2:48:38 PM
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There is a statute prohibiting KHSAA and other entities from limiting participation by 7th and 8th graders in HS sports other than football and varsity soccer.
There is a statute prohibiting KHSAA and other entities from limiting participation by 7th and 8th graders in HS sports other than football and varsity soccer.
10/03/2012 3:13:48 PM
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@professor I hope you understand that my rant was not directed at you or anyone in particular. One of the key ways to motivate any athlete is through goals. The boys had so much fun at state last year and they have a coach that inspires them so they set their sights high, the top actually. Nobody really believed they could actually do it (except for them). I think most parents thought that it is good to reach for the stars and settle for the moon kind of thing. But then something amazing happened. We went to Owensboro earlier in the season, hoping to place, and the boys dominated (5 out of top 12) taking minutes off their previous season's time and beating some of the best schools in the state. We cautiously started to believe. Then we went to Gatorland, one of our top five runners out with a fracture to his foot. Again, we hoped to place and literally, nobody believed me when I ran back to the camp and told them we won, we couldn't have beat these other great schools with only seven runners (2 of top seven not running). They followed me back to the posting explaining how I must of misread it. Our seventh runner had the heart of a lion that day and improved more then anyone else believed, enough for our team to win. We all became believers that day. We didn't inspire our boys; they inspired us. I am sure that to most of you reading this, this rule may be an inconvenience or a passing consideration to have a fleeting opinion on... but to me, the coach and the rest of the parents and especially the team, this is an outright theft of dream on the virge of coming true. These boys have busted their tails for a year now for that one dream. Maybe this all seems overly dramatic, an exageration from a biased parent who is overly outraged about following the rules. I believe in rules. I believe in fair play for everyone. But nobody wants the rules to change in the middle of the game... nobody. Could you imagine having the Murray State Basketball team go undefeated against SEC, Big East and Big Ten basketball teams only to find out, midseason after their success started to turn heads, that they were no longer allowing Ohio Valley Conference schools in the tournament; even though they were ranked #2 and was always allowed to be in before. I have no idea if our boys could win the state championship, whether they could finish in the top five or whether they would even be healthy enough to run at this point (two out with injuries). That is not the point, they should have the opportunity to compete against the best and find out for themselves. The other teams in contention should have the ability to compete against one of the top teams in the state as well. Nobody is well served by this decision and a few kids (our kids) are downright robbed.
@professor

I hope you understand that my rant was not directed at you or anyone in particular. One of the key ways to motivate any athlete is through goals. The boys had so much fun at state last year and they have a coach that inspires them so they set their sights high, the top actually. Nobody really believed they could actually do it (except for them). I think most parents thought that it is good to reach for the stars and settle for the moon kind of thing. But then something amazing happened. We went to Owensboro earlier in the season, hoping to place, and the boys dominated (5 out of top 12) taking minutes off their previous season's time and beating some of the best schools in the state. We cautiously started to believe. Then we went to Gatorland, one of our top five runners out with a fracture to his foot. Again, we hoped to place and literally, nobody believed me when I ran back to the camp and told them we won, we couldn't have beat these other great schools with only seven runners (2 of top seven not running). They followed me back to the posting explaining how I must of misread it. Our seventh runner had the heart of a lion that day and improved more then anyone else believed, enough for our team to win. We all became believers that day. We didn't inspire our boys; they inspired us.

I am sure that to most of you reading this, this rule may be an inconvenience or a passing consideration to have a fleeting opinion on... but to me, the coach and the rest of the parents and especially the team, this is an outright theft of dream on the virge of coming true. These boys have busted their tails for a year now for that one dream. Maybe this all seems overly dramatic, an exageration from a biased parent who is overly outraged about following the rules. I believe in rules. I believe in fair play for everyone. But nobody wants the rules to change in the middle of the game... nobody. Could you imagine having the Murray State Basketball team go undefeated against SEC, Big East and Big Ten basketball teams only to find out, midseason after their success started to turn heads, that they were no longer allowing Ohio Valley Conference schools in the tournament; even though they were ranked #2 and was always allowed to be in before.

I have no idea if our boys could win the state championship, whether they could finish in the top five or whether they would even be healthy enough to run at this point (two out with injuries). That is not the point, they should have the opportunity to compete against the best and find out for themselves. The other teams in contention should have the ability to compete against one of the top teams in the state as well. Nobody is well served by this decision and a few kids (our kids) are downright robbed.
10/03/2012 3:14:23 PM
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@bigbear3 For your reading enjoyment, here is the law, under the general Powers and duties granted to the state Board of Education: KRS 156.070 (2)(c) [i]The state board or any agency designated by the state board to manage interscholastic athletics shall not promulgate rules, administrative regulations, or bylaws that prohibit pupils in grades seven (7) to eight (8) from participating in any high school sports except for high school varsity soccer and football, or from participating on more than one (1) school-sponsored team at the same time in the same sport. The Kentucky Board of Education, or an agency designated by the board to manage interscholastic athletics, may promulgate administrative regulations restricting, limiting, or prohibiting participation in high school varsity soccer and football for students who have not successfully completed the eighth grade.[/i] The second clause of the statute addresses the situation where an agency would seek to limit a student from participating in both high school and middle school athletics on school-sponsored teams. According to Attorney General's Opinion OAG 92-98, the rule also applies to local school boards as well as the state board and KHSAA: [i]We have previously opined that the prohibition of the statute applies to local school boards as well as to the state board and to the KHSAA, although nothing prohibits those entities from making rules that limit a student's participation in sports activities based on the student's health, safety, and academic standing. OAG 90–87. We remain of that opinion.[/i] Here is a little more information from OAG 90-87, which addressed the effect of a bill amending KRS 156.070: [i]The prohibition in the Act also applies to local school boards. Pursuant to KRS 160.290, rules made by local school boards must be consistent with the general school laws of the state. Because House Bill 443 amends KRS 566.070, which may be considered a “general school law,” local school boards have no authority to make rules that would be inconsistent with House Bill 443. Accordingly, local school boards may not prohibit 7th and 8th grade students from participating in high school sports or from participating in more than one (1) school sponsored team at the same time in the same sport. Nothing in this Act, however, prohibits the state board, the KHSAA, or local school boards from making rules that limit a student's participation in sports activities based on the student's health, safety and academic standing. “[A] student has neither a property interest nor any fundamental right to participate in extracurricular activities in Kentucky.” Thompson v. Fayette County Public Schools, Ky.App., 786 S.W.2d 879 (1990). As long as such rules do not prohibit a student's participation in the sports activity based on the student's grade in school, but rather prohibit such participation based on other criteria, they will not violate the terms of House Bill 443.[/i]
@bigbear3

For your reading enjoyment, here is the law, under the general Powers and duties granted to the state Board of Education:

KRS 156.070
(2)(c) The state board or any agency designated by the state board to manage
interscholastic athletics shall not promulgate rules, administrative regulations,
or bylaws that prohibit pupils in grades seven (7) to eight (8) from
participating in any high school sports except for high school varsity soccer
and football, or from participating on more than one (1) school-sponsored
team at the same time in the same sport. The Kentucky Board of Education, or
an agency designated by the board to manage interscholastic athletics, may
promulgate administrative regulations restricting, limiting, or prohibiting
participation in high school varsity soccer and football for students who have
not successfully completed the eighth grade.


The second clause of the statute addresses the situation where an agency would seek to limit a student from participating in both high school and middle school athletics on school-sponsored teams.

According to Attorney General's Opinion OAG 92-98, the rule also applies to local school boards as well as the state board and KHSAA:

We have previously opined that the prohibition of the statute applies to local school boards as well as to the state board and to the KHSAA, although nothing prohibits those entities from making rules that limit a student's participation in sports activities based on the student's health, safety, and academic standing. OAG 90--87. We remain of that opinion.

Here is a little more information from OAG 90-87, which addressed the effect of a bill amending KRS 156.070:

The prohibition in the Act also applies to local school boards. Pursuant to KRS 160.290, rules made by local school boards must be consistent with the general school laws of the state. Because House Bill 443 amends KRS 566.070, which may be considered a "general school law," local school boards have no authority to make rules that would be inconsistent with House Bill 443. Accordingly, local school boards may not prohibit 7th and 8th grade students from participating in high school sports or from participating in more than one (1) school sponsored team at the same time in the same sport.

Nothing in this Act, however, prohibits the state board, the KHSAA, or local school boards from making rules that limit a student's participation in sports activities based on the student's health, safety and academic standing. " student has neither a property interest nor any fundamental right to participate in extracurricular activities in Kentucky." Thompson v. Fayette County Public Schools, Ky.App., 786 S.W.2d 879 (1990). As long as such rules do not prohibit a student's participation in the sports activity based on the student's grade in school, but rather prohibit such participation based on other criteria, they will not violate the terms of House Bill 443.
10/03/2012 4:33:14 PM
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This rule is great for many small programs like mine. Some of you say you don't have enough kids to make a team? The idea is to recruit among your school population and make cross country something that the kids at your school want to be a part of. If you don't have enough because you are a new program, that is a part of the task,...BUILDING a program. Why should you get to take a shortcut and combine forces with another school? Many schools, like mine, can't do that! I compete against soccer, club soccer, lacrosse fall practice, football, and various other extra-curricular activities to get the kids out. I don't have any other school that I can use to get extra athletes. I go with what I can get. Some years good, some years bad. Some years we compete well at state, some years not. That is part of the fun and the challenge. WHY would I think it is fair for other schools to combine to form a super team and then beat up on my team. Think about the shoe on the other foot. This is a great rule for many, many teams and not so great a rule for others. It equals the playing field and now it might help MY kids achieve goals at state they might not otherwise.
This rule is great for many small programs like mine.

Some of you say you don't have enough kids to make a team? The idea is to recruit among
your school population and make cross country something that the kids at your school want to be a part of.
If you don't have enough because you are a new program, that is a part of the task,...BUILDING a program. Why should you get to take a shortcut and combine forces with another school? Many schools, like mine, can't do that!

I compete against soccer, club soccer, lacrosse fall practice, football, and various other extra-curricular activities to get the kids out. I don't have any other school that I can use to get extra athletes. I go with what I can get. Some years good, some years bad. Some years we compete well at state, some years not. That is part of the fun and the challenge.

WHY would I think it is fair for other schools to combine to form a super team and then beat up on my team.
Think about the shoe on the other foot. This is a great rule for many, many teams and not so great a rule for others. It equals the playing field and now it might help MY kids achieve goals at state they might not otherwise.
10/03/2012 5:20:26 PM
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@alltrax You make a very legitimate point. This was an equalizing rule change that benefitted your program. If you started the year with only 6 runners but they were dedicated and talented that you recruited from your limited resources and they worked really hard all year and improved and right before the meet, you were told that the rule had changed and you have to have at least ten runners, counting the top 7, to compete. Would you feel like it was an opportunity to build your program? Would you just write the season off and say, "Oh well. Next year, we'll know to recruit more kids, unless they change something else after the start of the season"? Or would you be upset for the your kids who worked hard for a goal which was within the rules when they started? I do not necessarily disagree with the rule as much as I disagree with when it was changed. What if they decided tomorrow that only schools who placed in the top five in one of several qualifying events (none that you attended) were allowed to compete? If you knew at the beginning of the season, you could have prepared but now it is too late. Finish the season as it was originally planned and make the changes for next season. Give us time to find the coaches and recruit the kids to build the program as you said. This was not the rule when we started the season, it should not be the rule when we finish it.
@alltrax

You make a very legitimate point. This was an equalizing rule change that benefitted your program. If you started the year with only 6 runners but they were dedicated and talented that you recruited from your limited resources and they worked really hard all year and improved and right before the meet, you were told that the rule had changed and you have to have at least ten runners, counting the top 7, to compete. Would you feel like it was an opportunity to build your program?

Would you just write the season off and say, "Oh well. Next year, we'll know to recruit more kids, unless they change something else after the start of the season"? Or would you be upset for the your kids who worked hard for a goal which was within the rules when they started?

I do not necessarily disagree with the rule as much as I disagree with when it was changed. What if they decided tomorrow that only schools who placed in the top five in one of several qualifying events (none that you attended) were allowed to compete? If you knew at the beginning of the season, you could have prepared but now it is too late. Finish the season as it was originally planned and make the changes for next season. Give us time to find the coaches and recruit the kids to build the program as you said. This was not the rule when we started the season, it should not be the rule when we finish it.
10/03/2012 5:50:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 32
@backofthepack Also, you said "Combine to make a super team" which I realize you didn't refer specifically to our team. But, you should know that we have made passionate pleas for any and all kids to join the team and we have a total of 9 MS kids and one coach who does both elementary and middle school. The coach has never turned anyone away and has gone to great lengths to ensure new runners are not turned off by the amount of work required to be a great team (mixing frisbee, soccer, football and other activities to make it fun). The coach has a relationship with each student and their parents and encourages everyone to bring friends anytime throughout the season. These kids were not superior athletes prior to joining the team but I believe they are now through hard work and dedication. These kids were in the middle of the pack last year and if you go back and look at their performance at state, no one would have imagined they would be beating powerhouses like College View and Daviess, programs that are recognized and respected throughout the state. The other schools that I know about who fall into this category are also small and competing for pride and for love of the sport rather than building super teams. If anyone out there is stacking the deck, building all-star teams, they should be identified and it should be stopped but I do not know of any. Should we say that big schools have an inherent advantage over little schools and therefor divide everyone up into school size like they do in other sports? After all, that would only be fair. Specific rule changes implemented for next year could improve fairness in many ways; for next year. Maybe instead of awarding the top five schools, have the top three in small, medium and large competition. Was last year so disasterous that, keeping the rules that were announced prior to the start of this season, would not work? Would it impact the safety or the opportunity of the kids to compete? Rules should always try to be more inclusive allowing more kids to participate rather than exclusive, prohibiting competition and limiting participation. The timing of the rule change is what the biggest issue here.
@backofthepack

Also, you said "Combine to make a super team" which I realize you didn't refer specifically to our team. But, you should know that we have made passionate pleas for any and all kids to join the team and we have a total of 9 MS kids and one coach who does both elementary and middle school. The coach has never turned anyone away and has gone to great lengths to ensure new runners are not turned off by the amount of work required to be a great team (mixing frisbee, soccer, football and other activities to make it fun). The coach has a relationship with each student and their parents and encourages everyone to bring friends anytime throughout the season. These kids were not superior athletes prior to joining the team but I believe they are now through hard work and dedication. These kids were in the middle of the pack last year and if you go back and look at their performance at state, no one would have imagined they would be beating powerhouses like College View and Daviess, programs that are recognized and respected throughout the state.

The other schools that I know about who fall into this category are also small and competing for pride and for love of the sport rather than building super teams. If anyone out there is stacking the deck, building all-star teams, they should be identified and it should be stopped but I do not know of any. Should we say that big schools have an inherent advantage over little schools and therefor divide everyone up into school size like they do in other sports? After all, that would only be fair. Specific rule changes implemented for next year could improve fairness in many ways; for next year. Maybe instead of awarding the top five schools, have the top three in small, medium and large competition.

Was last year so disasterous that, keeping the rules that were announced prior to the start of this season, would not work? Would it impact the safety or the opportunity of the kids to compete? Rules should always try to be more inclusive allowing more kids to participate rather than exclusive, prohibiting competition and limiting participation. The timing of the rule change is what the biggest issue here.
10/03/2012 6:22:18 PM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 87
the logic of the rule is evident and hard to argue against but the timing of the change is odd at best. does anyone know who or what actually prompted the change to happen now? was this rule made known prior to the start of the season? is it a proactive change years in the making? is it a reactive change to something that is happening or might happen this year? is there an elephant in the room?
the logic of the rule is evident and hard to argue against but the timing of the change is odd at best. does anyone know who or what actually prompted the change to happen now? was this rule made known prior to the start of the season? is it a proactive change years in the making? is it a reactive change to something that is happening or might happen this year? is there an elephant in the room?

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