KYTrackXC.com

A serious look at Greenwood's success again. I really don't think it has anything to do with pagan rituals or radioactive waste. Therefore let me bring up another question. Since Greenwood, and a few other state teams, seems to be rather strong most years with fewer runners (10 to 15) in their respective class, would they totally dominate every year with a rather large team (40 to 70)?

Case in point a team that only has 5 runners under 18 min. (boy's race) at a meet would be at a serious disadvantage if one of those runners got injured or sick. Yet, a team that has 30 runners under 18 min. could still have 20 runners get injured or sick and still be able to compete for a team title. Therefore a team/coach with fewer runners has to be somewhat more conservative in terms of training to avoid potential injures so he/she can get them to state healthy.

Could that same coach dominate without the worry of one possible injury casting a severe blow to a team title?

The answer seems to be yes, and you could ask it from the other perspective - would a now dominant team be dominant without the 100 or so girls on the roster each year?

I'm not suggesting that the large numbers are the sole reason that the team (rhymes with consumption) is dominant. The numbers need a strong leader.

I think the small quality numbers are explanable in a couple possible ways (i.e. other than pagan sacrifice). I do think its worth pointing out that this situation occurs at other schools with smaller teams. Conner is another one - smaller #s, but they tend to usually do pretty well.

One explanation is that there is a "Cross Country culture" at a school, something that appeals to kids who are really interested in CC, but where non-CC oriented kids don't want to do the work. The kids who do show up are willing to work hard and they do well.

Another (similar) possibility is that the more recreational kids don't care for the coach, so they quit. The good ones are invested, getting attention, etc, so they hang in there.

I'm not saying either of these describe Greenwood, but I've seen this happening at other schools, so its a possibility I suppose.

When it comes to "Consumption HS", who knows how they get all those girls anyway - much less anything else. Maybe its due to the fashion sense of their coach?!

Since we seem to be looking at this from the perspective of the coach and his/her skill set, wouldn't it be safe to say that developing a program with numbers is a skill of it's own. I don't think consumption had 100 kids 10 years ago.

I also think there is some level of coaching philosophy here. Some coaches only look for competitive cross country kids and are not interested in recreational/fitness runners. Other schools/coaches think running is a sport that pretty much anyone can do it they put some time into it, and welcome slower runners.

Another good example of the small competitive team were Houston Barber's South Oldham teams. It seemed like almost every runner in the program was darn good.

Between four years running and two years coaching in North Oldham and South Oldham's programs, I've really only known the small, competitive culture that a team can have. As you may have noticed, high schoolers tend to influence each other...and in these situations it's generally for the competitive good. One individual can more easily be a catalyst in a small team as opposed to a large team. One is all you need (insert Tenacious D references), and that one can change from day to day. We see it at North each day. Couple that with choosing to become part of a running pedigree at the school and it seems like perpetual motion for team talent and focus....if you can find somewhere to start. Houston did an incredible job establishing South with what he was given. As I remember we had 16 members on our 2000 AAA State Champion team, 2 of which were 8th graders. There was a state title previously, sure, but he helped 5 of the 16 become Division I runners in college and virtually restarted the program, giving new life to Oldham County teams in the process.

The law of averages could also say that Joe Newton will win each year in Illinois with York when he has 200-250 runners come out, but it's a one-two punch when he's established a running tradition and can command his captains to truly influence their teammates as focused catalysts. In summation, I haven't met many Greenwood athletes, but obviously somebody steps up each year to do a darn good job influencing his handful of teammates...

As theMike pointed out, large teams tend to be large because they are more inclusive, but more inclusive tends to mean you've got more recreational kids than would otherwise be there. I know the coach at this "Consumption HS" (mentioned by back) fairly well and his numbers are the result of having a significant quantity of more recreational runners. The system works by pulling them in, getting them running, and then challenging some of them to consider stepping it up.

In my opinion, and I believe this "Consumption" coach shares my philosophy - it is fairly rare to find athletes (girls in particular) who come in fully wired, but not that rare to find girls who got hooked along the way.

That said, would larger teams be as successful if they were smaller? Possibly not - given what I just described. I can think of several "Consumption girls" who started more recreationally than competitively. Had the emphasis not been what it is, then maybe they wouldn't have ever come out. At the same time, I think you could say yes. Hopefully, the "Consumption team" is large for the very same reason it's at least somewhat competitive. I.e., the kids are motivated to come out by the strange Consumption coach just as they're motivated to work hard once they do come out.

Well rocket, did we answer this one correctly?

I would agree that it takes a certain "cross country culture" at a school, which (at times) could take years to develop. And I also agree that it would take a certain personally or "coach" to get this culture established i.e. Joe Newton at York or the Pink Kitty at Consumption. I believe Newton started with 15 runners his first year and when he retired average about 150 runners sort of like Consumption now. However, since Greenwood seldom goes over 15 runners in any given year, I would give more credence to the second premise of the "good ones .......hang in there". Yet, one team's "good ones" is another schools C or D team (as in a certain C team or JV team could win regional in some parts of the state).


Greenwood doesn

As I think back, I seem to recall Art Sciubba talking on the listserve about something that sounded like cuts. If so, then that would also explain how smaller numbers make it possible to be competitive in most years.

My personal thoughts remain with the idea that it's easier to focus on the diamonds than the lumps of coal, which tends to keep the faster kids out and makes the slower kids less interested in running. I have no idea if this relates to Greenwood or any of the other programs mentioned and I don't see that as a conscious act (i.e. it'd be hard to believe you'd have a coach who only wants to work with faster kids and consciously ignores slower kids), but it's something I've seen in several different programs.

I think the "thought" you derive from a discussion like this is that teams are an extension of the coach's philosophy. I can only speak authoritatively on one HS team - Consumption is big at least in part because team size fits into the general philosophy of that coach and his ideas of what it means to have a "program".

I would argue that Greenwood and other schools are also extensions of the philosophy of their respective coaches. I.e., teams like Greenwood probably aren't smaller because the coach is simply unable to recruit lots of bodies. A smaller, more disciplined (homogeneous) team is probably what coaches like Sciubba believe are best, whereas Chuck Medley and Chad Waggoner probably see bigger numbers as an important element of success.

Well, I think both Prfessor and Rocketman are right. A wise coach just resentaly told me of course you will be successive if all you coach is fast runners. I think you guys have narrowed it down most schools that maintain small numbers, have success, either because they have been carried by a few great, great runners(which rubs off) or the coaches methods reduce the numbers down to the best.

Well, I think both Professor and Rocketman are right. A wise coach just told me of course you will be successful if all you coach is fast runners. I think you guys have narrowed it down most schools that maintain small numbers have success, either because they have been carried by a few great, great runners (which rub off) or the coaches

The vast majority of both my running and coaching experience has been with "smaller" teams. When I was in high school, I don't remember ever having more than about 20 high school boys on our team, but my senior year we produced a team that put 3 guys sub-16 and 5 sub-16:30. My first state championship team at Western Hills had exactly 7 girls on it, and even after we were established we never had more than 18-20 total, middle and high school combined.

I think part of this is a reflection of the coach's personality. I've always dreamed of having big numbers, but I don't know exactly how I would react to it. The largest team I've ever had was 32 girls at SC in 2006, and that was stretching me a little. I'm someone who likes to be "close" to my athletes personally, and I don't think I'd be as good at that with larger numbers. So I don't think there's a conscious decision to be smaller team, but rather it's probably an unconscious reflection of the coach's philosophy and actions.

Having said all that, we're hoping to at least double our numbers at SC next year!

Interesting discussion, but Greenwood doesn't make cuts. From what I hear...not that I would know anything about it...they just do the best they can with the runners that come out and hope to put together a decent top 5 even if consists of underclassmen and, occasionally, and 8th grader.

In addition to the already stated reason of not cutting kids if they work hard, I also am not a good enough coach to predict who is going to develop in the future. Our #2-3 guy last year was #17 the year before!

I think this is an interesting discussion. In my 7 years of coaching we have seen definite growth in numbers, more on the boys side than the girls. I think we have close to 40 boys and around 20 girls this year.

Our guys team is having a strong season this year. We have put 20 guys under 20 minutes for probably the first time ever. I think a big part of the reason for the success has been some serious improvement from a few of our JV guys that have just pushed everyone else in front of them. Getting folks further back in the pecking order to really start competing can have a big effect on the culture of a team.

How is Greenwood always good?
I will once again say my first pick which is pagan rituals. If you insist its not that then i would say they are good b/c of...goofiness

Geez hunta, don't you know anything??!! Pagan rituals aren't what make Greenwood good. Pagan rituals are how they created the Eatons. They took mud, threw some old Runner's World magazines and a Pre poster into a fire, chanted a bit and poof..... the mud turned into another Eaton. St Louis was there taking pictures for kytrackxc and he says it was very similar to how they made Orks in LOTR.

I thought they were just breeded with the best genes possible or something, but that makes sense too.

Since Michael Eaton is on the Fellowship of Christian Athletes speakers list I am going to offer a better explanation than pagan rituals. It is clearly the altitude down there that creates this situation. When you grow up in an environment like that you have a natural predisposition for endurance success.

Honestly, I think the best explanation for why Greenwood is successful is also the same reason they are small... Coach Sciubba. He is obviously a very good coach, has proven it over a long period of time, with boys and girls. The real question is what is next? After Ryan graduates, how long until another great star comes out of there. My guess is it won't take too long.

They have a couple rising stars.

But remember with the new alignment, athletes will be spread out a bit more.

Make no mistakes about it, they will be good.

The only dry spell I could recall (on guys side) was after Beard, Beiber, Terry, Marr, Fouche, (somewhat dry) then M. Eaton arrived.

Remember kids will follow winners! Greenwood's (IMHO) best athletic program is XC - they are on a hot streak and has been for some time.

But something that no one has mentioned here is the fantastic parents of Gwood. You CAN NOT AND WILL NOT FIND A BETTER GROUP OF PEOPLE. At last years Wilderness Invitational - I had more Greenwood help (without asking) than I could of ever imagined. The parents jumped in and asked nothing in return... prior to this the Brian Marr family, (back when I won state - 99) - called me up and personally requested that I travel to footlocker with them (otherwise I would have not been able to go). I did not have to pay for anything but a couple snacks, and shirts.

Eaton Family - Mike and Ryan's dad, shouldn't be overlooked, funny guy, and I have seen his coaching skills in action, the dude turns into incredible hulk.
Rick Winquist -an amazing former bad to the bone runner that helps coach (his son graduated, but he is still around).
Dave Waldvogel and fam - he makes all the hytek stuff happen, and he does it fantastically
Austin family (their son graduated and they still help)
Tim Harris and Family - ha ha - my parents had no idea of how to run the finishing shoot last year, and the Harris family jumped in and showed my parents the ropes.

and I know there is a ton more

a huge part of Greenwood's success is owed to the parents Art is not running solo... that is for sure!

From an inside perspective, i will agree that it has a lot to do with the parents. The majority of people involved in that program are like a big family. There is support anywhere you turn both on and off the course/track.

Coach Sciubba doesn't cut athletes unless there is a behavioral issue. If he had, my 24 5k freshman year prob would have gotten me the boot. Instead he kept me around and helped drop me to a 16 my senior year. Not many students know how to take his demeanor, accounting for low numbers, but those that stick it out have success.