The Kentucky High School Athletics Associations crowned 34 state champions during the 2011-2012 school year.
Private schools won more than their fair share of state crowns, taking home 18 championship trophies. Looking at it another way, Louisville schools dominated with 16 state titles.
Bryan Station's 3A track championship and Lexington Christian's golf championship were the only titles for Lexington schools.
St. Henry and St Xavier led all schools with four state titles each. St. Henry earned all of its trophies in running sports. The northern Kentucky Catholic school won the boys' and girls' 1A track and cross country championships. St. X won it all in soccer, swimming, 3A cross country and tennis. Assumption finished the year with three championships in 3A cross country, 3A track and field and volleyball.
Here is a complete list of 2011-2012 state champions.
Football
Class 1A - Hazard
Class 2A - Covington Holy Cross
Class 3A - Louisville Central
Class 4A - Highlands
Class 5A - Bowling Green
Class 6A - Louisville Trinity
Volleyball - Louisville Assumption
Girls' Golf - Sacred Heart
Boys' Golf - Lexington Christian Academy
Girls' Cross Country
1A - St. Henry
2A - South Oldham
3A - Louisville Assumption
Boys' Cross Country
1A - St. Henry
2A - North Oldham
3A - St. Xavier
Girls' Soccer - Notre Dame
Boys' Soccer - St. Xavier
Girls' Swimming - DuPont Manuel
Boys' Swimming - St. Xavier
Girls' Basketball - DuPont Manuel
Boys' Basketball - Louisville Trinity
Girls' Bowling - Pleasure Ridge Park
Boys' Bowling - Scott County
Wrestling - Campbell County
Softball - Louisville Mercy
Baseball - Woodford County
Girls' Track and Field
1A - St. Henry
2A - Western Hills
3A - Louisville Assumption
Boys' Track and Field
1A - St. Henry
2A - Paducah Tilghman
3A - Bryan Station
Girls' Tennis - Lone Oak
Boys' Tennis - St. Xavier
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jonathan
If you count Manual, the "public private school," the privates took 20 championships.
"Private schools won more than their fair share of state crowns"
What is our fair share?
i think that Kentucky should have 1A
split 2a in half(have half go to 1A and the other half go to 3A to make 2A)
and the private schools should have there own division
Tennessee does it, i don't know why we haven't?
LP10i think that Kentucky should have 1A
split 2a in half(have half go to 1A and the other half go to 3A to make 2A)
and the private schools should have there own division
Tennessee does it, i don't know why we haven't?
@LP10
Because it limits competition.
it depends
teams like north oldham and south oldham will move up and run against teams like daviess county bowling green etc
and teams like assumption(st.xavier) sacred heart(trinity) dupont manual(if we consider them private, which they should be but i guess that's another argument) will have a chance to race against the top private schools in the lower divisions like st.henry sayre etc.
They seperated the Louisville schools in 1966, it did not work then, it will not work now.
I think we should give everyone a participation ribbon when they finish and as they walk out of the chute at State, Julian Tackett gives them a high-five and says, "You're a winner!"
professorI think we should give everyone a participation ribbon when they finish and as they walk out of the chute at State, Julian Tackett gives them a high-five and says, "You're a winner!"
@professor
i'm a little confused, what does that have to do with anything???
LP10i'm a little confused, what does that have to do with anything???
@LP10
Everything
very vague, thanks for clearing that up for me!
LP10it depends
teams like north oldham and south oldham will move up and run against teams like daviess county bowling green etc
and teams like assumption(st.xavier) sacred heart(trinity) dupont manual(if we consider them private, which they should be but i guess that's another argument) will have a chance to race against the top private schools in the lower divisions like st.henry sayre etc.
@LP10
Great Idea! Don't stop there. Let's do the same for the Olympics. We can make seperate divisions based on country size! Wait...there is more. That job you want? HA! You should only compete with applicants from schools that are close to the same size of the school you went to, that way you are not at a disadvantage. I like it.
Great Idea! Don't stop there. Let's do the same for the Olympics. We can make seperate divisions based on country size! Wait...there is more. That job you want? HA! You should only compete with applicants from schools that are close to the same size of the school you went to, that way you are not at a disadvantage. I like it.
@CCTrackDude
yea, well either way the current system isn't that either... guess you didn't realize that right?
lets make state just one big meet, i've never been against that
some schools and individuals that consider themselves "state champs" wouldn't survive with these 3A teams and also with some of these individuals in the smaller divisions
im not saying that this will actually change in kentucky, just a suggestion
oh yea, keep the sarcasm coming its fairly entertaining...
LP10
yea, well either way the current system isn't that either... guess you didn't realize that right?
lets make state just one big meet, i've never been against that
some schools and individuals that consider themselves "state champs" wouldn't survive with these 3A teams and also with some of these individuals in the smaller divisions
im not saying that this will actually change in kentucky, just a suggestion
oh yea, keep the sarcasm coming its fairly entertaining...
@LP10
I apologize for the sarcasm. My point is that seperating the schools that are more succesful from the schools that are typically not as succesful is not a solution. While sarcastic, my initial comment did illustrate that in the "real world" we compete against "all comers". As a senior in 1980 at a smaller Jefferson County Public School, there were less than 20 boys on my track team, and we had to compete with the likes of St. X and many other schools, some having over 60 boys on its team. While I personally never made it to the State meet in track, I have never once wished that I were in a smaller class that did not compete with those schools.
Nice to here from someone that's been through the same situation
The sarcasm comment was more towards the professor and I guess you got caught in the line of fire haha
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LP10
Prof is like Pavlov's dog--throw sarcasm his way and he just salivates!!! I haven't checked it out, but the Team IP guy who sells t-shirts at the state meets was talking about how New Jersey was a big money maker for him because they have 24 classes in New Jersey high school football--24 state champs in a state it takes two hours to drive one end to the other. Chew on that one awhile!!!
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official
dang, well that's a little extreme! haha
It does kind of jump off the page the XC has three classes and all the other sports have 1 except football. Two classes seems like the way to go. Whether or not it was meant this way, right now we are almost giving out participation ribbons.
Two classes being large and small schools that is.
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LP10
Actually, North Oldham is pretty small, they might move down. South Oldham I have heard is scheduled to move up to 3A anyway.
ononky
...right now we are almost giving out participation ribbons.
@ononky
or 4th place team trophies... those always look nice in the school trophy case!
MOTMANActually, North Oldham is pretty small, they might move down
@MOTMAN
I don't expect that trend to continue very long. As word spreads that David St Louis is coaching at North, kids and parents will be beating down the door to get in!
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MOTMAN
North Oldham is not even close to moving down to class A. They are in the upper half of AA now, and they're 4A in football, which if they use the football numbers like has been indicated for the next realignment, leaves them in AA.
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professor
Agreed!
The only problem is the lack of scholarship money. Before you laugh too hard, it cost us almost $1000 in fees for our son to attend North last year, more than I get paid for coaching XC. I guess if you live below the poverty line your kid just has to drop out of HS....or go to a private school and get a scholarship???
CoachMarkI guess if you live below the poverty line your kid just has to drop out of HS....or go to a private school and get a scholarship???
@CoachMark
It'd have to be in minor sports like football and basketball, we don't give running scholarships to the American born kids any more.
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BCrumbo
I used the numbers from the last realignment.
www.khsaa.org/track/realignment/schoolenrollmenthi....
This showed 53 AA schools larger than North Oldham and 42 smaller. In looking at the current enrollment report it does look like they are now in the top half of all schools but can't tell if they are in the top half of AA.
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LP10
I was wondering how long before this topic entered this site like it seems to dominate bluegrasspreps and kentuckypreps.
It all comes down to this. If you want to win, train hard, be dedicated and things will come to you and work out as they should.
And so what if you do not win? Is it better to crown every mediocre athlete out there a winner and water down the word "champion" until it has no purpose beyond trite phraseology? We have already done that to the word "hero" (i.e. every cop, fireman, military member, nice guy, adequate father, etc. gets called a hero for simply doing what they are supposed to do).
As someone who has attended public and private schools, competed for both, and has coached kids from both types of schools I have learned a few salient things: the school does not matter all that much when it comes to competition. What does matter is coaching and the athlete's dedication. Sure facilities are nice, sure athletic budgets that are swollen are nice, sure sheer numbers are nice, but they do not make up for the above stated requirements.
Also, who is this discussion for, the athletes or the parents/coaches/others? I know that most of the athletes I have coached and/or taught at public schools see this split of public and private as somewhat insulting. They are smart enough to realize that what you are telling them is that they are not ever going to be good enough to compete with the private school kids, so they should just kick them out of the equation to make it easier for them to be winners.
I always believed, and still do, that athletic competition better prepared athletes for real life and the ups and downs of a world that, let's be honest, is not always "fair and equal."
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GoNavyBeatArmy
My man GNBA hit the nail on the head. The bottom line is this - athletes, coaches and parents have a love-hate relationship with competition. Competition is great because it makes us better, but competition also implies the existence of winners and losers, and very few people like to lose.
I think the biggest problem with this whole issue is that people are too wrapped up in the outcome of competition to consider the most important aspect - the process of competition. It's nice to win trophies and medals, and I think it's important to have them awaiting the high finishers, but when these things become a team's raison d'etre, then I think that team has missed an opportunity to see that the true glory in this stuff emanates from what goes into competing for those medals and trophies, and is not really found in the medals and trophies themselves.
How about public schools recruit, provide incentive's and even allow out of state students attend their schools... then maybe the public schools would get their fair share of championships!!!
....
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GoNavyBeatArmy
I always believed, and still do, that athletic competition better prepared athletes for real life and the ups and downs of a world that, let's be honest, is not always "fair and equal."
It's not?????
Darn, you are still my hero!!!!
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GoNavyBeatArmy if private schools only had students that paid full tuition, did not cherry pick kids from public schools by providing scholarships or are allowed to enroll out state students for athletic purposes... no one would think twice about competing against them and certainly not feel inferior to them....
ChristianAdair@
GoNavyBeatArmy if private schools only had students that paid full tuition, did not cherry pick kids from public schools by providing scholarships or are allowed to enroll out state students for athletic purposes... no one would think twice about competing against them and certainly not feel inferior to them....
@ChristianAdair
In no way am I making a stand for the private schools but I know plenty of parents (whose kids attend X and T) that work 2 jobs and make tons of other sacrifice to send their kids there. In Louisville the privates are the best way to guarantee a good education and experience. When I lived there I was not going to put my kids in the public school system. Obviously this situation is not the norm.
T&F and CC being >mostly< individual sports naturally have a better change of competitive balance over team sports. As it has been stated "put in the work" and succeed. A county kid who wants it bad enough knows there is good talent between him and a championship. Regardless of class, public/private, race....etc. All the aforementioned are EXCUSES. Don't raise your kids with excuses. Don't coach your kids with excuses. Teach them to work hard. Teach them to believe in themselves by believing in them yourself.
Life ain't easy. Life ain't fair. The only way to get through it is to show up and put in the work everyday.
DannoKanno In Louisville the privates are the best way to guarantee a good education and experience.
@DannoKanno
An obvious opinion phrased as fact. I have witnessed in my own classroom many, many private school kids that come into the public sector ill prepared for their grade level. If we are going to continue the bias comments with very little evidence to back up our statements, I suppose you will now claim it is a socioeconomic difference between the private school kids. Meaning, "I meant the east end private schools, not the second rate, inferior southwest end private schools".
From my own personal experience of attending public schools as a kid, then attending a public university on the est coast, and by watching my own kids and other kids grow up from high school to college; after the 1st semester, its pretty much blurred where you went to high school. Professors could care less, your classmates could care less, and either you get in the rhythm of the university or you dont. Lets say that St X or SHA prepare you for Calculus I, and Eastern gives you pre calc.....easy decision, pick the Freshman math course that fits, catch up when you can if you even have to. Most university's admission departments look at what HS you attended, but the standardized tests and overall GPA - Class Standing decide. Does the "private school label" help? Sure. It can predict success to some extent. But again, its meaningless after the first year.
butlercoachxcDannoKanno In Louisville the privates are the best way to guarantee a good education and experience.
@DannoKanno
An obvious opinion phrased as fact. I have witnessed in my own classroom many, many private school kids that come into the public sector ill prepared for their grade level. If we are going to continue the bias comments with very little evidence to back up our statements, I suppose you will now claim it is a socioeconomic difference between the private school kids. Meaning, "I meant the east end private schools, not the second rate, inferior southwest end private schools".
@butlercoachxc
Absolutely an opinion. I was a transplant into Louisville. I had no preformed opinions of any institution whatsoever. As a parent, there was not one single public school that appealed to me like a couple of the privates. That being said. Ultimately it would be up to my child to perform. I can guarantee that my kids are expected, pushed and (most importantly) helped to achieve academically. We are now in a county public system and my oldest is doing very well. Near the top of every statewide and some nationwide categories she was tested in. my son is going into 1st grade so benchmarks not available. Though he appears to be like me so he will probably require a little more help focusing.
With hard work and encouragement a kid from any school in the state can achieve both academically an athletically. I am not taking up for the privates one bit. I am taking up for my own kids and the kids I coach. They are every bit as good as their private school counterparts. Mine know they need to work hard and regardless of where we are I know they will.
"Team" sports are a little different because of the gathering of talent. It does make it more challenging for a smaller schools to compete against it. But we are talking T&F/CC.
Don't tell me I have no evidence and don't assume what my next comment will be.
ChristianAdairif private schools only had students that paid full tuition, did not cherry pick kids from public schools by providing scholarships or are allowed to enroll out state students for athletic purposes... no one would think twice about competing against them and certainly not feel inferior to them...
@ChristianAdair
Haha, if it helps to create a strawman when dealing with this issue, knock yourself out. The very nature of your statement, however, suggest that you do think twice about competing against private schools and that you do feel inferior to them. I see no reason why you should feel inferior to anyone though, your team did quite well this year.
I do want to comment on a point mentioned above. Private schools certainly do provide an excellent educational experience and often athletic opportunity for kids. If they did not, they'd go out of business. This is not to say that a kid cannot get a great public school education. Even in schools people might consider poor overall, you will find exceptional teachers who work very hard and improve the lives of their kids. I don't believe the poster meant to say that this does not occur, because it certainly does.
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professor
Definitely was not saying that. As I stated. My children are in public school now (and great ones at that) had we still lived in Louisville they would be in private school. My children will be raised with the same expectations regardless of school classification. Also my children (or myself and wife) would not be any better of a person, scholar or competitor as a result of being a part of a private institution. The same principle applies to being a proud supporter of our public school. We are not inferior people just because we are public.
I will coach every kid and raise my children with the philosophy of equality. I will not throw around any whines or whimpers about unevenness, unfairness, competitive disadvantage, blah blah blah. We all have opportunities to excel. Sports like track and field and CC offer the amazing opportunity to highlight an individual. ALL KIDS need a support case. They cannot do it on their own. But if they set their mind to something and work hard with that goal in mind it does not matter where they go. None of the state champions skipped every practice and just showed up for the meet!
Oh and you can throw away the participation ribbons too. That's what the team picture is for. You want a medal or ribbon? Work hard and earn it! You'll appreciate it a whole lot more.
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professor I love to compete against any school, which is why my teams attend all the Lexington school invitationals, Wildcat Classic, Eastern Relays and I invite everyone to attend my Wolverine Open...however I would love to coach at a school where I had access 600 boys and then sprinkle in a few more I personally recruited from other schools...that would be exciting! I am student-first and have no problem with kids finding the school that provides the best opportunity to achieve personal goals... I pointed out in another discussion.... I support student over program and choosing the best situation for the student.
ChristianAdairI would love to coach at a school where I could choose from 600 boys and then sprinkle in a few more I personally recruited from other schools
@ChristianAdair
And I'd love to get a bunch of Kenyans - in fact I don't even need the good ones, I'll take the sucky Kenyans who only run in the 17s or 18s. Of course, unless you'd like to name exactly who is getting recruited (as well as explain why you haven't turned in the offending coaches), I suppose I'll have to assume both of our statements relate more to Dream World than reality.
Education and athletics are about giving each student-athlete the best experience possible. The athletes never get on here and complain about this topic. It is always the coaches and parents. Why are you coaching? If you want to be able to choose from 600 boys and "recruited athletes" then get a job at one of those schools! Out of state kids can also attend public schools in Kentucky. When it comes down to it a parent is going to do what they feel is in the best interest of their child. If you as a coach are giving your athletes the best experience possible, then you are doing an awesome job and should be content and at peace with your accomplishments. It is impossible to even the paying field. KHSAA makes their decision and a coach has to do their best within that system. If "ifs and buts were candy and nuts, eeveryday would be Christmas". Gee whiz, focus on the kids and what you can control. I just can't believe educators get on here and beat this dead horse all the time. It is embarrassing.
DannoKannoDon't tell me I have no evidence and don't assume what my next comment will be.
@DannoKanno
And what exactly is the consequence if I do??? Very strong command statements, I would be careful how you phrase them. But, ultimately, you can phrase your statements in any manner you would like. As for my first comment, it was simply to support the public sector. Which provides thousands of students each year with a quality education. I am definitely more in tune with your response to me about the quality of the home environment being the key element in education. Truth be known, I am actually more supportive of home schooling over any other form of educational opportunity. Assuming that the parent has the knowledge to impart to their children.
But this thread is not about educational philosophy but rather about public versus private in the athletic realm. Which is something that I have found to be a cancelation argument. Depending on your view, you are blinded by your own misconceptions to see the other point of view. It goes both ways and in the end no one has changed their minds. So, there is always a lot of passion and energy put into this topic, yet the efforts of each to gain support fall on deaf ears and no progress is made. Of course, for now, no progress is probably the best situation.
How many days until CC practice starts?
Hopefully that will put this lame argument on the shelf for a while.
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wcodey
Official practices may begin on July 15. Many public schools can't meet on Sundays though, whereas there generally are no restrictions on private schools with Sunday practices - which I guess means the private schools have yet another advantage this year, 1 extra day of organized practice.
I'm a parent of two private school kids who are now out of high school (2010, 2012). My wife and I sunk well over $100k in their education, an expense we felt was well worth it based on the quality of education, and what no one here has mentioned, the religious education they received. I know of no runner, private or public school, that EVER was recruited OR received a scholarship. I'd love to hear that recruitment speech. Does it go something like this: "Dear Mr. and Mrs. Runner Parent, how about sending your great runner to our school so that he/she can help us nail down another state championship? Oh, by the way, it's going to cost you anywhere from $25k to $50k+...." A huge driver in why parents are willing to sacrifice to send their kids to the private schools is that, on average, the public system is broken. That statement is not meant to imply that every public school is broken, but in general, and on average, they are compared to private schools as a whole. For example, in Northern KY, I'd have no problem sending my kids to Beechwood, Highlands, or Walton Verona... all fine schools that prepare their kids extremely well for college. Here's a thought: Perhaps it is the academics that attract the kids to Highlands and Beechwood instead of the sports... despite each being athletic powerhouses in football. By the way, the metric I'm using is the percent of kids who graduate who are not prepared for college and have to take remedial classes in college at their/our expense. I've attached a link that will open your eyes if you haven't seen it before, and should frankly make you sick about the broken educational system we are paying for.
news.cincinnati.com/article/20120616/NEWS0102/3061....
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runagain
There are several problems with using this report to compare public schools to private schools. One is that the private schools almost universally have entrance exams and weed out the kids who would not make the cut, those kids go to public high schools. The other half is well documented, as you stated, the cost is high so only relatively wealthy kids go to the privates, most of the kids with little support at home go to the public schools. The private schools also don't have to spend tons of their money on special ed, most don't take special ed kids, or if they do the only take the low needs ones.
I'm not trying to say that many public schools don't have serious problems, but trying to use this kind of report to say that private schools are better is leading you down the wrong path. The only way to compare public and private schools (apples to apples) would be to give them exactly the same group of kids (demographically)and see who has the highly level of success.
CoachMarkOne is that the private schools almost universally have entrance exams and weed out the kids who would not make the cut, those kids go to public high schools.
@CoachMark
Unless you're talking about some elite prep school type of private school, and even there I'm not sure, that statement is totally false. At the Catholic Schools, the test you're referring to is called a placement test, not an admission or entrance test, and this test allows the school to determine the best level of classes for the kids who get accepted. The test does not determine who gets accepted into the school.
runagainI'm a parent of two private school kids who are now out of high school (2010, 2012). My wife and I sunk well over $100k in their education, an expense we felt was well worth it based on the quality of education, and what no one here has mentioned, the religious education they received. I know of no runner, private or public school, that EVER was recruited OR received a scholarship. I'd love to hear that recruitment speech. Does it go something like this: "Dear Mr. and Mrs. Runner Parent, how about sending your great runner to our school so that he/she can help us nail down another state championship? Oh, by the way, it's going to cost you anywhere from $25k to $50k+...." A huge driver in why parents are willing to sacrifice to send their kids to the private schools is that, on average, the public system is broken. That statement is not meant to imply that every public school is broken, but in general, and on average, they are compared to private schools as a whole. For example, in Northern KY, I'd have no problem sending my kids to Beechwood, Highlands, or Walton Verona... all fine schools that prepare their kids extremely well for college. Here's a thought: Perhaps it is the academics that attract the kids to Highlands and Beechwood instead of the sports... despite each being athletic powerhouses in football. By the way, the metric I'm using is the percent of kids who graduate who are not prepared for college and have to take remedial classes in college at their/our expense. I've attached a link that will open your eyes if you haven't seen it before, and should frankly make you sick about the broken educational system we are paying for.
news.cincinnati.com/article/20120616/NEWS0102/3061....
@runagain
You will never be able to get that thought through peoples thick heads, we have been trying for decades! Schools like Highlands and Beechwood are like private schools in a way because parents are willing to pay much higher city taxes and pay very elevated property values in order to get their children a good education. And no, everyone in Ft Thomas/Ft Wright are not dripping with wealth. Many, many parents struggle to send their kids to these schools and sacrifce a lot in doing so, but value the cost of an education for their kids. I have seen so many posts on sports web sites where parents are more worried about what little Johnny is doing on the sports fields than in the classroom.
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CoachMark
I agree with your statement "The only way to compare public and private schools (apples to apples) would be to give them exactly the same group of kids (demographically) and see who has the highly level of success." with one addition: you'd have to fund them equally. I'm confident that the difference in outcomes, given same demographics and same funding would be the degree of parental involvement and government intervention. How about a voucher system that lets parents decide where to send their kids to school? Ironically, wouldn't that force more competition between schools at the most fundamental layer?
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runagain
No, just going to a voucher system does not create what you are looking for unless you take another step. The every private school would have to agree to accept every kid (including the most difficult special needs kids) that walks in with a voucher and that will never happen.
There are other problems with the voucher idea:
1. The amount of money that many public schools spend (ie the amount of the voucher) would not be nearly enough to pay for many private schools so you would be right back to the rich kids in private schools and the poor in public schools. NOTE: I am not saying that you can't find a public school that spends more than a private school, I am sure there are cases but it is often not the case.
2. Imagine how many people would freak at the idea that their tax dollars could be spent on sending a kid to a islamic school, or a jewish school or a catholic school where they teach specific religious ideals.
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CoachMark
Haha, based on your comments I can tell where you stand on these issues. I'm not going to address each one, and pull this thread even further off-topic, but there is one glaring fallacy you mentioned that I will address.
Your statement about private schools and special needs kids implies that private schools only accept perfect flawless little children and never take anyone with special needs of any type or kids with serious "issues" at home. Definitely untrue. I know one Catholic School here in town, pretty well actually haha, who has an entire department dedicated to teaching kids with learning differences - and learning differences are, by definition, special needs. I believe there are also a couple private grade schools dedicated to working with learning difference kids too. Now, if you're talking about kids with down syndrome, serious psychological disorders, etc, then I agree you won't find many private schools accepting those kids - but it's because they aren't equipped to help them. It'd be no different at most public schools. If you're talking about kids with serious behavioral disorders, then the same thing applies - although public schools may accept them, they will draw a line on behavior that could lead to those kids being removed from the school. I would assume, however, that these kind of kids are small in number (unless you subscribe to the theory that everyone's got a little bit of crazy in 'em).
By the way, when it comes to freaking out about tax dollars being spent on religious schools - those people don't tend to be the poor folks who may benefit from a voucher program, they tend to be the rich secular folks.
To get us back on track, I have some observations developed over that last 7 years:
1- There are multiple levels of "championships" or titles. For our team, it is NKAC Conference Championship, Diocese of Covington Championship, Regionals and State. It is an honor to win any of them. Each are different and are at varying levels.
2- Each of those championships have different rules regarding who to include/exclude. I've never heard any complaining of who is in what title race with exception to the state level.
3- Other sports that don't have classifications, such as soccer, have an "all A" championship to recognize the best small school in the state. If folks have their panties in a wad, then how about segmenting track and CC into an "all private" or "all public" championship, independent of the state meet. If you want it bad enough, organize it and make it happen.
4- I'm not surprised Louisville wins the most state championships. That's where the population is most dense, competition is highest on average, and more choices are available.
5- I'd expect class A team titles to be dominated by small schools. I haven't looked thoroughly, but I'd assume most small schools are private so based on percent of small schools alone in that population, the most championships that come out of class A belong to the private schools.
6- Class 3A is made up of two interesting population distributions: Single county schools that do not have medium to large cities so that there is only one high school in the county, or a mix or private/public schools in large metropolitans (Louisville, Lexington, etc...). The metropolitan areas have a mix of schools and due to population density, there is condensed competition as well as choice resulting in consolidation of talent at some schools. I'd expect most large school titles to go to Louisville private schools where there is a large population to draw from and people have choice where to send their kids (NOTE: That is different from recruitment).
7- I haven't heard of any public/private debate beyond state competition. Is anyone grousing about or concerned with regional/national competition? Where does the "fairness" boundary begin/end?
8- Recruitment is illegal. Please, show me one instance where a secondary sport athlete was recruited. Sorry to say, but running, as much as I love it, falls into this category.
9- Teams that succeed have a few things in common:
(a) There is great coaching.
(b) There is strong parental and community encouragement/support.
(c) There are many participants in the sport, so the talent pool is big to draw from. For example, Coach Harden at St. H tries to draw in as many athletes as possible, starting with leveraging existing athletes to solicit incoming freshmen to sign up for running during the freshmen orientation, and after the freshmen year, encouraging good athletes cut from soccer, volleyball, etc... to give running a shot. It takes EFFORT on his part with the effect that 20% of the school's population runs CC/track.
(d) There is a middle-school program associated with the high school
(e) The sport alumni remain visible, attending meets, supporting the program, etc...
(f) There is a visible tradition that results in good athletes choosing running over other athletic options
(g) The better teams seek out competitive events to continually test themselves.
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runagain
I definitely agree with the points you've made but am not clear on this one:
I'd expect most large school titles to go to Louisville private schools where there is a large population to draw from and people have choice where to send their kids
I'm not sure why Louisville area private schools have a larger population to draw from than Louisville area public schools.
One point that has not been raised here, but has been on a number of occasions in the past, is that the differences between Private and Public schools is more about income level than simply being private or public. E.g., in Volleyball, Soccer and Swimming, you can spend significant amounts of money on club teams. I'm sure it's possible to find kids from families who didn't spend tons of money on putting their kid through a club sport, but the kids who do participate on the club level in these sports tend to be much better on average than those who don't. I believe a similar argument can be made for Field Hockey (yuck) in the Louisville area, and it looks like Lacrosse is moving in that direction as well. Tennis and Golf are similar as well, but of course not because you've got a club system in those sports. Should it be any surprise that Private schools win championships in sports like Tennis, Field Hockey (yuck), Lacrosse, Golf, Volleyball, Soccer and Swimming?
I don't think affluence explains the outcomes in every sport, but I definitely believe that affluence explains a number of them.
Another point that's been raised here, I believe by Eric van Langingham, and I've read elsewhere is that there's a positive correlation between sports (and recreation in general) and family income. I.e., higher income tends to be accompanied by more participation in sports. This may not be the case in every sport, but I think the relationship holds in a number of sports. It's also a correlation, not necessarily causal, and it doesn't imply that poor people are lazy, haha. I think it's safe to say that where you find greater athletic participation, you also find a greater likelihood of finding a winning team somewhere.
2011 3a state champions Saint Xavier. 1st Connor Sheryak 2nd Sam Lewis 8th Zach Beavin 11th Nick Reader 12th Mark Johnson. 31 points, amazing! I wonder if Chuck Medley recruited all of this talent. Sheryak and Beavin were big names in grade school... But who were the other three? It seems like they must have been kids that were willing to be coached and work hard to earn their state title. I don't think recruitment goes on. It is just an excuse for losing.
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professor To clarify the point a bit, I'll speak directly about NKY schools since that is what I'm familiar with, and in recognition of my ignorance of other parts of the state that may invalidate my comments about them.
NKY also has a dense population as part of the suburbia around Cincinnati, similar to Louisville. My address is mapped to a school district (Conner HS in my case). However, I have the option to pay to go elsewhere, and the population density permits many schools within a short driving distance that, in fact, gives me choices. If I were in Bracken County, I wouldn't have as many school options unless I wanted to drive quite a distance. In addition, the availability of relatively well paying jobs affords me the discretionary income to exorcise options.
Regarding options, one option we haven't discussed that may take this conversation away from public vs private and more toward the affluence ou bring up is the option to pay to attend an out of district public school, given room in the other public school. I do know a few families that have chosen to send their kids to Beechwwood for example instead of the public school in their district based on the school's academic excellence and sport program pedigree.
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fastrunner91
You missed one, Mark Johnson was a stud in MS, not quite as big a name as the other two but top 20 at MS State and sub 14:30 for 4K, dude's a stud.
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professor
Actually, I'm not so sure you understand where I stand on this issue but we can discuss it off line.
I agree that it's the rich secular folks who will object, they are also the ones who will file lawsuits and block any voucher system, my point exactly.
After doing the research and adding all KHSAA sports besides bowling. This is girls and guys numbers together. The total spilt of state Championships between Private and Public schools over the last 3 years stands at Private 50 --Public 46. Seems to me that's pretty equal. You take out Swimming and the numbers are equal, sorry folks I just don't see the Public school sector devoting a lot of cash to swimming programs in the future. What I have learned over the years is this, and I will state that I went to Trinity High School; however my Mother is a teacher in the Jefferson Co. Public system so if you want a few truly unbiased thoughts here are they are. I went to public school until middle school, the switch was based not on the ability of the public school system to deliver a quality education/ sports program, and this was before traditional schools were formed, but they could not guarantee my mother a controlled environment that could deliver that quality education. Here, is what I got out of going to a private school, tradition/ history, support: (and what I mean here is support from the school but also parents and not just mine, everyone no matter if they played sports or not had one goal and that was to succeed and push themselves, very few were there causing barriers to others.) I can tell you that the biggest down fall to public schools is community/parental support at the basic level it is that. It might be the most important part if ask me. The best Public School sport programs in the state have this support and that doesn't have to be money either there is nothing more important than an individual’s time and private schools get both. Was it not: Father Kampsen of Lexington Catholic that was famous for saying, " the only difference between Catholic and every public school was you guys have a championship team that goes home everyday at 3:30."
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CoachMark
I believe the voucher system would be completely embraced by the private school parents. Why? Because those of us who spend out of pocket dollars to send our kids to private schools would now have the option of directing our hard earned tax dollars toward the education system of our choice. Keep in mind my friend that I have not only pulled dollars out of my pocket to send my kids to a private school, but also was taxed to send other kids to the public schools. I'm not complaining about that. What I'm complaining about is the low standards that the average US-wide public schools adhere to. To reiterate a point implied in earlier posts, if I was a local tax payer in Highland Heights, Fort Mitchell or other communities that have superior public schools, I'd be ok with this. I'm not ok with wasting my tax dollars on inferior schools that do not prepare their kids for post high-school college work, resulting in these same kids either incurring personal debt to close the gap in terms of college debt to get remedial instruction, or me further funding the kids that qualify for public assistance to do the same.
Regarding cost, it may be a shock to learn that most private schools operate at a more efficient cost/student than the public system. Why? Most private school educators are paid less (including coaches) and there is NO pension system that drains the system.
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runagain
I never meant to indicate that the private school parents would not accept it, that is about the easiest group to get to buy into vouchers!
Let me reiterate the problems:
1. It likely will not pass constitutional muster on separation of church and state. Using tax dollars to teach religion.
2. It will not fly due to the special ed issue.
3. It will not help those that need it the most, the poor in very poor school districts. In many, not all, of those cases the voucher will not cover the cost of most, if not all, private schools. The poor can't afford to pony up the difference so they are still stuck in failing schools. The voucher system helps the moderately wealthy, and the super wealthy, not the poor, in most cases.
I think how you feel on the public/private issue depends heavily on your frame of reference. This is really only a debate in three areas of the state: Louisville, Lexington, and NKY. Judging by the conversation and who's participating, I think when a lot of people that have posted say "public schools are horrible," what they really mean is "JCPS is horrible." And while it is true that JCPS is pretty much a mess (the reasons for that and any possible solutions are a debate far beyond this discussion), even within JCPS there are levels of schools, from very good to very bad and everywhere in between. I think it needs to be clarified that out in the state where school choice is unavailable (and thus vouchers would be irrelevant), public schools and how they are viewed is much different than in the more populated areas.
Is it possible that you can look at this not as a public/private issue or a Louisville vs. the state issue, but rather something as simple as the bigger schools in the state taking home the hardware? Looking at the numbers liked above, Trinity and X have the largest enrollments in the state for boys. Does it not make sense for them to win a large share of the state championships? Similarly, Assumption and Sacred Heart are #7 and #22 (when those numbers were taken).
I know that there have been problems between the publics and LexCath, and there is always vitriol between the private and public in Louisville, but I find it interesting that with the number of private schools in NKY, I have hardly ever heard any sniping or complaining from the public schools in that area. Maybe it's because I don't live there, but I sure haven't heard it. What is different there? Is it becaues the public schools in that area are better than the public schools in Louisville and Lexington, so the divide isn't as great?
My oldest child attended public elementary school in Oldham County until last year. We decided for personal reasons to send her to private school in Louisville this past year, and even coming from one of the best public school systems in the state, the rigor of her work and the expectations increased to the point that we were shocked. It's a different world in the classroom, but also athletically. Just in the opportunities the kids have to play sports, things are much different. My daughter played volleyball as a 5th grader last year, and her school had 13 volleyball teams for 4th-8th grades! And enough other schools had the same number that they had plenty of teams to play against. With participation like that at the early stages, is it any wonder that they have success later on?
Finally, with regard to recruiting, I am 100% sure that recruiting goes on...but not by the school or the coaches. It happens when athletes (and the parents of those athletes) interact. Especially now, when kids talk to all kinds of athletes from many different schools via text, twitter, and facebook, kids are going to talk about where they want to go to school, they're going to say things like "wouldn't it be great to come run with us next year," and their parents have similar conversations. This is natural, and there's nothing to be done about it. But honestly, the biggest recruiting tool for a private school is their success. It's the same reason training groups form in our sport in various places like Boulder, Tucson, Big Bear, etc. Athletes want to be with other successful athletes. It raises their game, and in turn raises everybody else's. I was raised in public school just across the river in Southern Indiana. I never even considered coming over to X or Trinity because I was in a quality school and a great public school running program. If I hadn't been, I would have strongly considered it and would have been silly not to if I wanted to maximize my opportunities. If you don't want kids choosing private schools, build up your public schools (and their athletic teams) to the point that kids don't want to leave. I coach at a public school, and I have no desire to be "saved" from the privates.
Ya'll need to just get together over dinner in Louisville somewhere and work out your differences. There are still schools around the state that could care less about this issue and are not worried about what the name on the opponents jersey says or what state they get them from. We are still gonna take the kids we have from our county and compete the best that we can. It just makes it sweeter when you are successful.
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BCrumbo
Great post, I think you are right one target with this post. As far as your remark about NKY public/privates getting along; you are right. There is very little complaining by the publics about the privates having an unfair advantage. I think this is because like you stated, the public schools in NKY are just as good if not better in academics and athletics. There is also a lot of friendships with the kids and parents,between the schools(only 20 mins to get to other schools in Kenton/Campbell/Boone County). You also have a lot of parents working together in NKY and Cincinnati. A good example is my daughter who has been on a soccer team for 4 years and has made very good friends with kids that will be going to Highlands, NCC, and ND. And yes there has been a lot of "recruiting" among the parents in a light hearted manner. These established friendships makes it very fun when the meet up on different teams in HS.
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jossege You made a great point about NKY. Perhaps the private/public debates are more regional in nature, and the root reason why I am so amazed and defensive when they come up. NKY is a very tight community, and most people have been here a long time and chose to remain here to raise families based on strong common core beliefs. I've really never heard any squabbling about private/public competitive advantages one way or another across the sport spectrum, so I am really taken aback when I hear them anywhere else. There are schools that are recognized as local powerhouses in certain sports (e.g., swimming at Notre Dame, football at Highlands and Beechwood, wrestling at Ryle, CC at St. H, track at NewCath and Highlands, etc...) but conversation is at the school level, not private/public level. In addition, I think there is a certain level of regional pride that exists so that if ANY NKY school does well and brings home a state title, we all are proud. For example, though we failed to win a state title that year, I was extremely proud of our NKY schools when Campbell County, Highlands, and NewCath all brought home the girls Track/Field titles. It was a big day for NKY. Perhaps one factor in that regional NKY pride element is that unlike other parts of the state, we live in the shadow of Cincinnati, and the local press and focus is laser-like on Cincy high schools, with NKY schools only getting footnote recognition. The natural result is when any NKY school gets some press in the local paper, it's a big deal for all of us to get the recognition and I think that pulls us together.
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GoNavyBeatArmy
I always believed, and still do, that athletic competition better prepared athletes for real life and the ups and downs of a world that, let's be honest, is not always "fair and equal."
It's not?????
Darn, you are still my hero!!!!
@official
I cannot be a your hero...I am not a Notre Dame grad, and we all know that true heroes are made in South Bend.
professorChristianAdairI would love to coach at a school where I could choose from 600 boys and then sprinkle in a few more I personally recruited from other schools
@ChristianAdair
And I'd love to get a bunch of Kenyans - in fact I don't even need the good ones, I'll take the sucky Kenyans who only run in the 17s or 18s. Of course, unless you'd like to name exactly who is getting recruited (as well as explain why you haven't turned in the offending coaches), I suppose I'll have to assume both of our statements relate more to Dream World than reality.
@professor You can get a bunch of Kenyans- you do coach at a private school RIGHT?! I am not talking about any particular coaches.... You are out of place to assume I am talking about a dream world... I am in the same world, state and country you are in... duh... with a name like professor I expected a little more intelligence in to your reply's rather than sarcastic remarks that make little sense...
ChristianAdairI am in the same world, state and country you are in... duh... with a name like professor I expected a little more intelligence in to your reply's
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to say that "Dream World" was an actual place. My bad, I'll try to look more smarterer next time!
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professor I guess you will remain sarcastic... so much for having a real debate...where I would learn from a "Professor"
